Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!

[admiralducksauce]

Hey all!

It's quickly approaching time for me to threaten my group again, and I've decided to go with one PC's nemesis.  The specifics of what or who it was were left vague, just something bad he encountered in Afghanistan that turned the PC's unit on each other.

I'm thinking warlock, geared towards mental domination and stuff, and just had a quick question.  Is mind controlling, say, everyone in a bar (call it a zone) just a matter of enough Evocation shifts to Take Out the people with a +2 shifts for a zone area of effect?  That the Taken Out effect being "you're all mind controlled thralls and do what I say now" is enough to whip up some instant minions for this bad guy?

[MijRai]

You would need to do it with Sponsored Magic to enthrall them at the speed of Evocation. You are correct, Taking them Out or giving them a good consequence would be all you really need to do.

[BumblingBear]

I think a really powerful consequence invoked for effect would work on mooks.

[admiralducksauce]

You would need to do it with Sponsored Magic to enthrall them at the speed of Evocation. You are correct, Taking them Out or giving them a good consequence would be all you really need to do.

I'm not sure why one would need Sponsored Magic to slap someone with a mental blast and say that their mind is broken and they're a slavering thrall once they're Taken Out.  Is specifying that kind of result simply not within Evocation's purview?

[Belial666]

While evocation can do mind-affecting spells through maneuvers and you could potentially "break" someone by attacking their mind with a spell dealing mental stress, a complicated, lasting effect such as making them a thrall is the purview of the Psychomancy type of Thaumaturgy.

That said, Kemmlerian Necromancy allows psychomancy spells via evocation, and so do Hellfire, Soulfire and Outsider Magic.

[DFJunkie]

Personally I would limit Evocation to graceless, momentary effects.  For instance, the entire bar could be whipped into a howling mob and sent to attack the PCs or given some similar simple command, but for fine control you'd need Thaumaturgy and time.

The reason I'd make that ruling is that Evocation is generally a "straight line" effect.  Move energy from point A to point B and achieve the desired result.  "You want to kill this person" would fall into Evocation IMO, but nothing more complex.

[UmbraLux]

For more ephemeral affects you might use a mental block. 

A mental veil wouldn't be limited to sight.  It could as easily affect emotional or conceptual perception....

[admiralducksauce]

Cool.  An evocation maneuver that could be compelled would work well enough for most cases.  I kind of want to see if this guy can work without the "cheat" of Sponsored Magic, though, so bear with me a little longer as I explain my plan.

Warlock walks into a bar (ouch!).  Warlock drops an area-effect evocation (or multiples, it doesn't matter for our example) to Take Out everyone in the bar.  Just knock 'em out or leave 'em standing and stunned, again, it doesn't matter.  They're Taken Out and in a fashion compatible with evocation.

NOW our Warlock sets about a psychomancy ritual to turn these stunned bystanders into his ensorceled servants (say, changing their High Concept?).  What does that ritual look like?  Do I need to Take them Out a second time, thus requiring some shenanigans on the level of a Weapons-Grade Entropy Curse or the Heart-Exploding Spell?  Or is the complexity far, far lower since the victims aren't resisting?

[DFJunkie]

NOW our Warlock sets about a psychomancy ritual to turn these stunned bystanders into his ensorceled servants (say, changing their High Concept?).

  That might actually be overkill.  I mean, sure, if he wants the entire bar to be his servants indefinitely he could go that route, but if all he wants is a group of rough thralls for the short term he'd just need to place an aspect on them.  There's a lot of room for negotiation and interpretation in Thaumaturgy, but IMO changing a high concept would only be necessary if you want to change the very core of a person long term.

Do I need to Take them Out a second time, thus requiring some shenanigans on the level of a Weapons-Grade Entropy Curse or the Heart-Exploding Spell? Or is the complexity far, far lower since the victims aren't resisting?

The latter.  Taking them out with Evocation obviates the necessity for all of those shifts, he can move directly to the effects.

One last thought.  I would not permit a ritual, no matter how complicated, to twist more than one person's high concept at a time.  Each change would have to be personalized, as it is effecting the very core of what that person is from, for instance "Outlaw Biker" to "Loyal Muscle of [NPC]." 

[BumblingBear]

  That might actually be overkill.  I mean, sure, if he wants the entire bar to be his servants indefinitely he could go that route, but if all he wants is a group of rough thralls for the short term he'd just need to place an aspect on them.  There's a lot of room for negotiation and interpretation in Thaumaturgy, but IMO changing a high concept would only be necessary if you want to change the very core of a person long term.
The latter.  Taking them out with Evocation obviates the necessity for all of those shifts, he can move directly to the effects.

One last thought.  I would not permit a ritual, no matter how complicated, to twist more than one person's high concept at a time.  Each change would have to be personalized, as it is effecting the very core of what that person is from, for instance "Outlaw Biker" to "Loyal Muscle of [NPC]." 

This.

[ways and means]

This seems to me to be what kemmlerian necromancy is made for first you area of effect psycomantically wipe all of the bars occupants of thier personality (area of effect attack with the taken out concequence of becoming brainless puppets) then you direct your puppet with a kill command (area of effect manouvre). Then you hope that the PC kill your puppets (perhaps you attache a bomb to one of them just to be sure) so you can bring them back as zombies to attack the PCs again.

[DFJunkie]

This seems to me to be what kemmlerian necromancy is made for first you area of effect psycomantically wipe all of the bars occupants of thier personality (area of effect attack with the taken out concequence of becoming brainless puppets) then you direct your puppet with a kill command (area of effect manouvre). Then you hope that the PC kill your puppets (perhaps you attache a bomb to one of them just to be sure) so you can bring them back as zombies to attack the PCs again.

Long way to walk to achieve the same effect of 1) Warlock blasts the bar with AoE attacks that inflict mental stress until everyone in it is taken out, describes the taken out result as "stupefied and open to manipulation," which IMO is a very reasonable result, 2) prepares a ritual that will, perhaps, inflict the "you hate the following people and will do everything in your power to kill them" involving pictures of the PCs.  For added fun he can use some of the bar's whiskey in the ritual, force feeding each of the patrons a shot as the vector of the ritual.  Same effect, but no Sponsored Magic required, and instead of being brainless and simple each person will attempt to kill the PCs to the best of their own ability rather than relying on the Warlock for orders.

[sinker]

You know, I just had a thought, and everyone's going to be galled at me, but consider this. Mechanically a spell is a spell is a spell right? Makes no mechanical difference whether it's a 4-shift fireball or a 4-shift wind blast or a 4-shift fissure. So if you just want to skip the actual enthralling and just assume that he is for some reason spectacular enough to pull that off on the fly, what's to say that the description of his attack spells is simply him directing a mob of enraged people. A 4-shift "Howling mob" attack spell if you will. Just a thought. I certainly wouldn't suggest this for a PC (obviously the amount of practice one would need to get this good at this would not be PC friendly) but it might be interesting for a NPC villain. And of course if you want the PC's to stumble on his control ritual then this isn't the way to go, but if you want quick and dirty mind magic directed (indirectly) at the players, BAM.

Now that I'm thinking about it that could also be a really cool direction for a white court vampire to go. Take channeling and simply run it as a much greater ability to control others through your emotional mind whammy. A rage Whampire throwing enraged mobs of people at the players, a fear Whampire starting a stampede, a lust Whampire dragging the players into a crush of writhing bodies.... Interesting thoughts.

[DFJunkie]

I don't see why you think that would gall people, it's a very interesting thought IMO and not a bad way to model an attack by an undifferentiated mob of people, none of whom are particularly dangerous in their own right, but when considered as a mass are potentially deadly.  On the other hand, if a Warlock has some time to plan ahead I imagine there are more complex and effective ways to use such a crowd, since the downside is that unless you allow casters to add persistence to Evocation attacks it would be a one-and-done sort of thing.  Given that exchanges are about 30 seconds that might not be a real problem though. 

[sinker]

Meh, it's not like the mob is used up in an attack. You could theoretically use the same mob in a different attack the next exchange, or for a block or maneuver.

Now I'm thinking about interesting interactions between using people as spells and other people's blocks/attacks. If one person throws up a wall of fire to block and the warlock throws people at it... Or if the warlock is using people to block and you start throwing attacks at him...

Also people tend to dislike my more abstract and unorthodox ideas, thus the preface.