Power of submerged casters?

[Belial666]

Kemmlerian Necro gives a further +1 bonus, I think (on top of allowing you to use the necro control). Also, Harry raised a dinosaur with Kemmler's works but did not violate any Laws.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ah, I see. I missed that.

And whether Harry was using Kemmlerian necromancy or just Thaumaturgy there is up for debate. And it's a debate I'm not really interested in having.

[Becq]

I'm not sure how the math worked on your Necromancer example.  I count totals to necromancy of 5 power (since there are no necromantic power bonuses) and 11 control.  You can't add your spirit evocation spec bonuses with your necromantic thaumaturgy spec bonuses on a single spell.  (Although with Kemmlerian Necromancy, you can use your Necromancy control bonus in evocation instead of your normal control, so long as there's a sufficiently necromantic theme to the evocation.)  You'd be better of moving your spec to Necromancy (+1 spirit power, +2 necromancy control, +1 necromancy complexity) for versatility, as this could allow you to argue using your now 12 necromancy control with every evocation you cast.  You could also try to convince your GM to allow you to take a specialization in thaumaturgy power (since you can cast it like evocation), in which case you'd probably want to swap the +1 necromancy complexity for a +1 necromancy power, and possibly even move a +1 from your control spec to power, too, ending up with +7 power and +11 control for necromancy, +6 power and +11 control for death-flavored spirit, and +5 power and +11 control for death-flavored everything else.

[ways and means]

Wow 14 control for death themed evocation at 12 refresh that is grim (5 discipline +4 focus +3 specialisation(+1,+2) +2 lawbreaker) especially when considering the fact that showing someone images of their death (mental stress) would probably count even if your shields are rubbish.  

[foondar]

A submerged focused practitioner (spirit channeling + diabolism ritual +5 refinements)

From my reading of the rules, focused practitioners can't take refinement.  Only Sorcerers and Wizards can.

[ways and means]

Channeling comes with two free
Focus Item Slots (page 278). You can design
the items that fit into these slots now, or later
on during play. A single Focus Item Slot may
be traded in for two Enchanted Item Slots
(page 279). You may gain more Item Slots as
one of the options on the Refinement
ability (page 182)—but you may only buy
Refinement for that purpose. All items
created for those slots must be in keeping
with the elemental theme you’ve chosen for
your power"

[devonapple]

So, yes on refinements, but only for Focus Item slots (which can be liquidated for Enchanted Item slots).

[Becq]

Wow 14 control for death themed evocation at 12 refresh that is grim (5 discipline +4 focus +3 specialisation(+1,+2) +2 lawbreaker) especially when considering the fact that showing someone images of their death (mental stress) would probably count even if your shields are rubbish.  

That depends on how lenient your group is on letting you define effects.  For example, you could come up with a spell called "Flesh of the Grave" which causes your flesh to become tough, leathery, and corpse-like.  It would be similar to Biomantic magic, but would be cast via Necromancy, making use of your Necromantic bonuses (Necromancy). Or perhaps "Shield of Decay" which would be very much like Carlos' shield, but flavored to have a death theme (Necromancy-assisted Water).  Or perhaps "Wall of Ghosts", which would cause a number of weak ghosts to orbit around you, trailing an ectomplasmic sheen behind them that deflects attacks (Necromancy-assisted Spirit, or pure Necromancy).

[ways and means]

What I meant was that block were run off of power rather than control so to get a good block requires a lot of mental stress.

[Becq]

That's true, yes.  Defenses rely much more on power than control, whereas control is stronger for attacks.  Even so, it might not be a terrible idea when finding yourself in a tough fight to just mark off your third or fourth mental box to get yourself a powerful shield.

Or just lay waste to everything in sight before it can hit you, I guess.  :p

[Belial666]

My necro example is calculated correctly;

Kemmlerian necromancy
might combine with the spirit element to inflict
potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort
of combination allows the spellcaster to use his
existing evocation specialization bonuses with
the new power source.

and

A Kemmlerite may choose to use
his control bonus from necromancy instead of
the control bonus he would normally use with
evocation, so long as the casting incorporates
some element of death

and finally the +1 bonus of the sponsored magic itself.



So said Kemmlerite is casting Kemmlerian Necromancy at the speed of evocation, using his spirit specialization bonus for power, his necromancy control and the bonus to necromancy. That combination makes him really, really nasty.

[stabbald]

Wait, Belial, do you let the necromancy control bonus stack with the spirit control bonus? That seems like a bad idea to me. (If I did it with Tbora than goddamn it.)

I also question the possibility of using Kemmlerian Necromancy without Lawbreaker (Fifth). I always got the impression that simply casting a Kemmlerian Necromancy spell breaks the Fifth Law. That's subjective, though.

And yes, a Submerged character can be truly world-class in one thing. Evocation is a rather good choice for that thing to be.

Even if it doesn't require a lawbreaker I'm thinking that if any Warden saw you using Necromancy they would excecute you immediately, just in case.

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Dresden got away with it purely due to the dire circumstances involved and the fact that the Wardens were hurting from the Vampire attack. Had this happened in Storm Front, Morgan would have killed him without giving it a second thought.

[Belial666]

Necromancy isn't just raising the dead. A withering spell to hit someone with a magical wasting disease, an energy-drain spell to leech part of his life-force, spiritual barbs to tear at his soul and/or cause tremendous pain - those are all necromancy and can be nonlethal. Sure, they are horrible uses of magic - but they aren't Lawbreakers.

[toturi]

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Dresden got away with it purely due to the dire circumstances involved and the fact that the Wardens were hurting from the Vampire attack. Had this happened in Storm Front, Morgan would have killed him without giving it a second thought.

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He also got away with it because Luccio was there and she outranked Morgan.

[Becq]

So said Kemmlerite is casting Kemmlerian Necromancy at the speed of evocation, using his spirit specialization bonus for power, his necromancy control and the bonus to necromancy. That combination makes him really, really nasty.

Ah, I see, but I believe you're misinterpretting the text, in part because you're missing some context for the first quote.  The complete quote is:

In addition, if you already practice evocation, you may use a sponsored power source to “supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized in. So Summer magic might combine with the air element to give a “breath of life” effect; hellfire might combine with fire to produce, well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy might combine with the spirit element to inflict potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort of combination allows the spellcaster to use his existing evocation specialization bonuses with the new power source.

With that context, those two blocks of text are talking about the same thing: the ability to 'supercharge' your existing evocation elements by channeling Kemmlerian Necromantic (KN) energy into them (a common sponsored magic capability).  This allows you to use your KN bonus (in this case, the +1 control) when casting normal evocations and using your normal evocation specialization bonuses (ie, they stack).  The second block of text adds a capability unique to KN (at least, among the sponsored magic examples provided) that allows you (again, when casting normal evocations flavored by KN) to use your Necromancy control bonus (which would include the KN +1 bonus) in place of the normal element's control bonus (which in this case could also inclue the KN +1).

So far, I think we agree on the above.

The difference, though, is that it doesn't say that you can replace use your Evocation bonuses when casting Thaumaturgical effects, whether or not you do so using the rules of Evocation.  This seems to be allowed by your first quote, until you add in the context provided by the sentences before it, as quoted above.  So to summarize, KN allows you to:

* Add a bonus to your complexity and control when casting Thaumatugy(Necromancy).
* Cast Thaumatugy(Necromancy) rituals fast, using Evocation's rules.
* Add a bonus to your existing Evocation([element]) control when casting thematically appropiate Evocation spells.
* Use your (bonused) Thaumatugy(Necromancy) control in place of your Evocation([element]) control when casting thematically appropiate Evocation spells.
but not
* Use your Evocation([element]) power when casting Thaumatugy(Necromancy) rituals fast, using Evocation's rules.

So still nasty, but somewhat less so.