Power of submerged casters?

[Belial666]

Given that the ability of spellcasters fluctuates even at the same power level, it might be useful for GMs to have some numbers of what is average power, meaning the power/control for rotes of a dedicated but generalist practitioner, focused power , meaning the power/control of rotes for a dedicated practitioner focusing on a single aspect of magic (only offense, only defense, only rituals or only a single element/theme) and max power, meaning the maximum size of spell a practitioner could reasonably pull off (with backlash/consequences/whatever) without shenanigans.

The idea is that once we got numbers for the various types of practitioners (focused practitioners, lawbreaking focused practitioners, sorcerors/wizards, lawbreaking sorcerors/wizards, sponsored magic users and sorcerors/wizards with sponsored magic) we can make a table GMs can look up to decide on challenges for spellcasters, where a given spellcaster is on the power scale, comparisons and other useful stuff. For simplicity's sake, submerged power level without items of power offers a common ground for the least amount of work.

[Tedronai]

Probably a good idea to base such evaluations only on canon-sourced powers/stunts, as well.

[BumblingBear]

I don't think the community could ever agree on this one.

How the table is run is really an individual thing.

I encourage power gaming, because this allows me to make more interesting/powerful monsters.

Of course, I warn players before doing so that they may be effectively killing off their characters.

The more power is being thrown around, the more likely it is for a PC to be taken out and killed.

[Sanctaphrax]

I generally work on a system of steps based around the number of shifts one can safely power and control with a rote in one's best element when using foci.

3 shifts is the base. If you can't do it, you can't really call yourself an evoker. (All spellcasters from Feet In The Water up should be capable of this.)

5 shifts is par for the course. This is the minimum for a combat wizard. (This is what I expect from a Submerged wizard.)

7 shifts is fairly impressive. Experienced Wardens who focus on evocation are generally at this level. (This is what I expect from a combat-focused Submerged wizard.)

9 shifts marks a master. The best evokers of the Wardens are at this level. (I don't expect to see this often at Submerged character creation, but it's far from impossible.)

11+ shifts is incredible. The Senior Council is at this level, as are one or two Wardens. (If you have this at Submerged, you are probably focusing too much on evocation.)

[BumblingBear]

I generally work on a system of steps based around the number of shifts one can safely power and control with a rote in one's best element when using foci.

3 shifts is the base. If you can't do it, you can't really call yourself an evoker. (All spellcasters from Feet In The Water up should be capable of this.)

5 shifts is par for the course. This is the minimum for a combat wizard. (This is what I expect from a Submerged wizard.)

7 shifts is fairly impressive. Experienced Wardens who focus on evocation are generally at this level. (This is what I expect from a combat-focused Submerged wizard.)

9 shifts marks a master. The best evokers of the Wardens are at this level. (I don't expect to see this often at Submerged character creation, but it's far from impossible.)

11+ shifts is incredible. The Senior Council is at this level, as are one or two Wardens. (If you have this at Submerged, you are probably focusing too much on evocation.)

This is a pretty good guide.

That said, control rolls are where a character can really destroy something (or someone).  NGM are important for casters.

A caster is a +9 control roll with 4 hoarded fate points, a +2 on the dice, and 2 NGM is looking at a +23 shift control/targeting roll.

If they are casting a 9 shift evocation, that's a 32 shift evocation... without /too/ much difficulty.  This is perfectly possible at chest deep or submerged levels.

I would argue that the base numbers are not what make a powerful evoker - a lot of it comes down to how someone plays.

Some wizards put the cannon in glass cannon.  Some prefer to just play the glass... and that is ok too.

[admiralducksauce]

WTF is a NGM?  Ninja Guided Missile?

[ways and means]

I think NGM are manouvres though I have no idea what the NG stand for.

[devonapple]

I think NGM are manouvres though I have no idea what the NG stand for.

Navel-Gazing Maneuvers: maneuvers to place Aspects on oneself, usually things like "Focused," "Ready for a Fight," "Calm," "Crammed For the Test.".

[BumblingBear]

Navel-Gazing Maneuvers: maneuvers to place Aspects on oneself, usually things like "Focused," "Ready for a Fight," "Calm," "Crammed For the Test.".

Yup.

A favorite I liked to do in my last game was to wave my hands in arcane gestures for a maneuver while fighting. This could be either an athletics or a discipline roll depending on the character.

My character couldn't act right away.  He usually had to stay out of the action or hide behind something for 3 actions or more, but once he was ready to lay down the hurt, the hurt got laid.

[Tedronai]

the hurt, the hurt got laid.

Here's hoping the hurt used protection...

[BumblingBear]

Here's hoping the hurt used protection...

LOL! +1

[Belial666]

Well, a submerged wizard (wizard template + 2 refinements) could easily have control +2, power +1, +3 offense power focus, +3 offense control focus, +1 focus specialization (to make the foci the smallest possible) and conviction/discipline of superb. That's +10 control/+9 power offense, +7 control/+6 power defense.

A submerged focused practitioner (spirit channeling + diabolism ritual +5 refinements) could have spirit offense +5 foci, spirit defense +2 foci. That's +10 control/power offense, +7 control/power defense.

A submerged necromancer (evocation, thaumaturgy, kemmlerian necromancy, 1 refinement) is downright terrifying. +2 spirit power, +1 spirit control, +1 necromancy control, +4 necromancy control focus plus necromancy bonuses. That means power 8, control 11 necromancy/psychomancy at the speed of evocation, complexity 5 necromantic/psychomantic rituals finished at a single exchange due to control 11. As long as they are smart and they stick to legal necromancy/psychomancy to avoid Lawbreakers, they are badass. Of course, they could pretty easily go off the deep end as NPCs. In that case, run for the hills; they're gonna have full Lawbreaker 1st, 3rd and 5th. That boosts them to power 8, control 14 meaning they kick serious ass.

[ways and means]

i consider the sight a prereq for kemmlerian necromancy as you need to be a wizard or a sorcer to use it and both of those classes have the sight as a requirement.

[zcthu3]

Actually Sorcerers only need Thaumaturgy and Evocation. The entry on Sorcerers says most have the Sight as well, but it isn't a pre-requisite for being a Sorcerer.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wait, Belial, do you let the necromancy control bonus stack with the spirit control bonus? That seems like a bad idea to me. (If I did it with Tbora than goddamn it.)

I also question the possibility of using Kemmlerian Necromancy without Lawbreaker (Fifth). I always got the impression that simply casting a Kemmlerian Necromancy spell breaks the Fifth Law. That's subjective, though.

And yes, a Submerged character can be truly world-class in one thing. Evocation is a rather good choice for that thing to be.