Grenade Punch

[Gatts]

The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.

Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.

Grenades are fragmented, and inflict damage mainly based on the chunks of metal fired in all directions. These chunks of metals would have to richochet from his hand in the direction of his enemy. I can hardly see how this would diminish the damage done.

My main problem with this, is that it basically sets a precedent of 'immune to grenades', it will hardly make sense if he doesn't get scratched by this grenade but one lobbed in his direction later gives him a minor or moderate consequence, and yet that is perfectly possible. From a reasonable, and dramatic, point of view he should take more damage from this than he would take from one thrown at him.

[Tedronai]

The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.

Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.

The material used to shape the explosion of a 'shaped charge' rarely survives such an explosion in better condition than if that same quantity had exploded without such measures a few meters off to the side.

[devonapple]

The consensus seems to be that the Grenade Punch Maneuver could work on its target, given an attacker with the right blend of strength and toughness.

The main question now is whether or not (and how how much) the Grenade Punch would do to the attacker.

The physics/logic, though contested, seems to indicate this should seriously harm the attacker.
The preservation of game balance seems to indicate this should do as much (or more) damage to the attacker than an ordinary target of a grenade.
Issues of potentially bad precedent seem to suggest that this should seriously harm the attacker, or provide some other disincentive.

But Dresden has room for a little sketchiness in its physics. And the Toughness powers we are talking about are basically a form of Plot Armor. In the end, this may just have to fall out according to the spirit of the table.

[Blackblade]

I would have made him treat it as an ambush; he could roll defense, but his appropriate skill would be treated as a +0.

[Belial666]

He obviously rolls endurance, not athletics, for defense provided he has some sort of toughness powers.

[Tedronai]

But what's the 'Effort' of an attack generated by intentionally HOLDING the explosive as it detonates?

[Gatts]

But what's the 'Effort' of an attack generated by intentionally HOLDING the explosive as it detonates?

Honestly? I'd seriously consider 'default to Fantastic'. It's about as accurate as a hit can be, since his hand is pressed against it.

[Tedronai]

I don't know about that.  I'd consider a headshot to be 'about as accurate as a hit can be', and there's a lot of room between there and a hand (one of the four LEAST critical points on the body from a survivability standpoint)

[ways and means]

Honestly? I'd seriously consider 'default to Fantastic'. It's about as accurate as a hit can be, since his hand is pressed against it.

Well I personally think the most accurate a hit could possibly be would be the grenade exploding at eye level right in front of his face though you may consider that legendary accuracy.

[Gatts]

You have to remember that Harry's hand being burned was an Extreme Consequence. There are no hit locations in this game, just severity.

[Tedronai]

There are no hit locations for stress.  But there CAN be for consequences.  There's just no hard rules enforcing them.  Harry's hand getting burned was a perfect example of their implementation, in fact.

[Gatts]

There are no hit locations for stress.  But there CAN be for consequences.  There's just no hard rules enforcing them.  Harry's hand getting burned was a perfect example of their implementation, in fact.

My point is that you can clearly have enough damage to take an Extreme Consequence just from damage on the hand, the system doesn't treat extremies as negligible. The damage should be pretty much the same.

[ways and means]

A 0 means that you have hit the target so you could argue that hitting the hand would count as a plus 0, the difference between the attack roll and the defence roll shows how well you have hit which could mean where you hit (body location), you can argue that stress does not have location but the closest of near misses to the head or throat would be more stressful than a the closest of near misses to a hand. 

[Gatts]

A 0 means that you have hit the target so you could argue that hitting the hand would count as a plus 0, the difference between the attack roll and the defence roll shows how well you have hit which could mean where you hit (body location), you can argue that stress does not have location but the closest of near misses to the head or throat would be more stressful than a the closest of near misses to a hand. 

Damage to the head is worse than damage to the hand usually anyway, even as the same severity level consequence. A Moderate or Severe consequence would leave him one handed for a while, but he'll manage and it certainly wouldn't finish him off.

[Aludra]

I'm a serious newbie to the DFRPG stuff, but I still have 2c to throw in here:

If I imagine a dude punching someone with a grenade in his fist that has mythic toughness, I would imagine that if he has his fist around it, his hand would be protecting most of the area from the damage.  I wouldn't expect anyone standing more than 6 yards away to be impacted.  The guy holding the grenade ought to at least lose vision for a number of seconds, and his hand should sting, too.  Obviously the guy unfortunate enough to be facing off against someone with mythic toughness and the ingenuity to punch someone with a grenade would be totally toasted.