Grenade Punch

[Paynesgrey]

Assuming the guy holding/swinging the frag has DFRPG equivalent to Superman Impervious Mitts and Mystic Impervious Fingers of Not Blowing Uppedness, then the force of the blast would be more like a crude shaped charge rather than an omnidirectional explosion.  So more whumpf for the poor sod who's eating it.  It would work on the same principle as a tamped demo charge or an armor piercing explosive (save for those with self forging warheads like on purpose built anti-tank missiles.)  So, what's the next step up in small, portable explosives?  If the game has stats for a HEAT round or other low-end armor piercing explosive that's a step up from the common frag but below something like an AT-4, you could just upgrade the damage to that item for a quick-n-dirty solution.

[Triage]

If the character were to claim that he was attempting to punch the grenade into his opponent and then pull back before it detonated then you could perhaps use a fists roll +4 damage for his opponent and attack roll zero attacks against the rest of the zone with weapon 4 as he isn't actively targeting them, including himself, though applying ambush rules to the player in question as they would be short on time to protect their soft bits (face in particular). Even if using endurance for defense rolls through a stunt I think it should probably be subject to ambush rolls in this situation just like anyone else who's flat-footed against an attacker (though in this case the attacker would be themselves) otherwise it represents a form of immunity to ambush rules and should probably be represented as a higher value power instead.

If the character is making no attempt to pull back before the grenade detonates then perhaps their fist roll should count against them as well to represent their ability to close the distance with their target rather than fumbling the grenade or being forced to toss it at the opponent instead, though this would be foolish enough that I'd hope it was attributed to an aspect so that I could give a Fate point for it, maybe two if they injure themselves badly enough.

Of course handling it as a concession to end the fight could work as well, though to take out a miniboss/lieutenant in the same blow they'd have to negotiate a steep consequence if they weren't already winning the fight.

[Seb Wiers]

To me this sounds like its an attempt to create the aspect "Blowing Up (In) My Hand" or some such.

So yeah, basically what's needed is a consequence (maybe more than one) you create on yourself and can tap offensively. 

Normally that would be a maneuver, but since the aspect is being taken as a serious consequence (grenades can blow through armor plate at close range, so a hand with even mythic toughness probably isn't much challenge, and just adds more shrapnel) I'd say there's no need to maneuver.

[Kommisar]

I've been largely avoiding this one.     But I'll chime in on some physics regarding what a shaped charge is.

A shaped charge operates because of (and brace yourself here!) the shape of the charge.

No really.

They were invented/discovered in the mining industry.  It is unknown how long the effect was known to certain blue-collar miners; but an mining engineer took notice in the early part of the 20th Century.  He noticed that miners were essentially etching metal with small plastic charges as a "Hey yall, watch this!" kind of thing and etching a reverse of the name of the company into the metal.  The engineer went about finding out why.  Turns out, it was the dent caused by the ridged name on the metal tin that plastic charge was shipped in that created a mini-shaped charge.  It created a concave dent in the charge which, when detonated, focused the blast to the focal point of the concave curvature.

Think lenses and optics... but using explosive force instead of light.

This quickly got refined for military use.  Particularly by Zee Germans.  For those that remember their history, they were up to some shenanigans back around 1936 or so.  The first big use of a shaped charge was with the Panzerfaust 30.  A single shot infantry anti-tank rocket.  Zee Germans had tested and experimented to find the most efficient conical shape to use.

The material behind the shaped charge really has no bearing nor does it really add any real confining force/pressure that acts to direct the blast.  Mathematically, it is sure to add some; but of such a magnitude that it would not be included in any actually design modeling that one would carry out.   I'm not going to go into the physics of this for sake of brevity; but that wouldn't work in this situation anyway.

What you have with a fragmentation grenade is a charge that is purposefully shaped to project metal shrapnel in all directions.  It is omni-directional.  In close proximity, the force of the explosion is quite intense and will cause massive damage to a human body.  But, even a mythically tough hand is not going to "shape" the explosion back into the target.  At best, the Mythically strong hand will simply match and/or counter the force that is imparted in the hand's direction with some leaking out around the edges of the hand.

How big is that hand anyway?

I honestly can not see a means by which punching someone with a hand grenade would generate any additional damage beyond the damage of the punch itself.  At least in terms of real world physics.  You mileage may vary depending on how "cool" and/or cinematic you wish your game to be.

[ways and means]

What the character was doing was an cupped open palmed punch to the face of the enemy big bad which meant that  half grendade was in contact with the enemies face. 

[Kommisar]

Not a shaped charge.

It's a maneuver bonus.  Roll Athletics to get in close for the Aspect "In Area of Effect".  Roll Fists to add on the Aspect "Point Blank".  Then you can tag those for +2 or an Invoke to, say, prohibit the target from using a Dodge (athletics) style defense.  Alternatively, use one or both Aspects as justification for offering the NPC/GM a Concession to the fight.  Assuming you haven't rolled yet that is.

Either way, he is not going to get a straight Weapon Rating increase in my opinion.  As always, go with what makes your group happy with the story and game!   

[Paynesgrey]

Makes sense to me.  After reading your refresher on shaped charges, it's now clear to me that the grenade in the Superman Hand still wouldn't match an equivalent explosive that was actually formed for AP or cutting.  I wonder though if it wouldn't still get some bonus for being like a (sloppilly) tamped demo charge.

[Kommisar]

My opinion as a Civil Engineer that has blasting experience:  No.  Not enough to really worry about.

[Paynesgrey]

I'll take that as gospel from an expert then.   

Thanks for the info!

[Seb Wiers]

What the character was doing was an cupped open palmed punch to the face of the enemy big bad which meant that  half grendade was in contact with the enemies face. 

Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated.  So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".

[Belial666]

A weapon rating increase by 1 means half an order of magnitude to an order of magnitude of increase in energy. I.e. weapon 2 is a pistol. Weapon 3 is a machinegun or shotgun. Weapon 4 is a grenade or dynamite stick. Weapon 5 is a rocket launcher. IMHO, most things you can do to a grenade would not increase the damage nearly enough to warrant a weapon rating increase.

Now, if you used the grenade in a single-opening iron tube to propell a 7-pound lead projectile... you'd have a crude but fairly effective napoleon-era cannon. That might be weapon 5.

[ways and means]

Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated.  So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".

Ah your right, I didn't think that through very well that is what you get for running a DFRP on the rule of cool rather than sense.

[Kommisar]

Hey, don't let things like physics and all that get in the way of having fun with a good story!  I just throw out the hard physics/engineering for those that are curious or interested. 

[BumblingBear]

The way I would run it is the damage of the punch would stand alone.

Then at the beginning of the the next round when the grenade finally went off whether it be on the floor or still in the hand, everyone in the zone would have to roll defense for it.

Relatively simple.  It wouldn't make a stronger attack, but it could allow a being with ridiculous toughness and some strength to make 2 "attacks" in one round.

And if they made a habit of doing this, I would definitely limit how many grenades they could acquire.

[Paynesgrey]

Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated.  So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".

There have been hand grenades designed to go off on impact, but I don't know if anybody still uses or even makes them considering they offer way less margin for awfucks than a timed fuse would.