Sixth Law question/debate

[EdgeOfDreams]

My interpretation of the law is that it only refers to sending people, objects, or knowledge back in time, primarily due to the potential paradoxes involved and the opportunity to abuse such a power to selfish ends.

That said, I don't think chronomancy and divination themselves conflict with the law.  However, I'm betting that most wizards don't study these areas too heavily, and that chronomancers would be looked down on and distrusted by the wardens because they're messing with powers that come close to breaking the law.  It's like how Harry has refused or been reluctant to research certain kinds of spells (such as in Storm Front) due to the bad impression it would give if he was found out, regardless of what he actually did with the knowledge.

[sinker]

How does plot importance increase the power required? I don't recall any framework of rules regarding anything like that... Are you talking about taking him out as in applying enough stress and consequences to take him out?

Plot importance usually signifies how many consequences must be inflicted to take someone out. If they're a mook then they have no consequences and it usually only takes five or six shifts to take them out.

If so that is not the point the point is to remove him out of the battle until later and then combat him on different terms.

Seemed to me that he was trying to remove him from the combat, and then set things up so that when he returns it's in a position of extreme disadvantage (I.E. within a circle) sounds like a "taken out" result to me.

If PCs were going to just take him out by dealing that much stress there wouldn't be a need for time magic in the first place.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Mechanically it doesn't work any better than anything else.

On top of this for thaumaturgy 35 shifts is completely within the realm of possibility anyways.

Which is why I said that it's not feasible to draw that much power in combat, not ever.

I think the effect that is being sought here is a maneuver which is then being invoked for effect, which is completely within the rules and achievable with relatively few shifts. The victim would get a defensive roll but the shifts required would be nowhere near ~30. Magic maneuvers are simple evocations, however 10 minutes is a bit much for evocation thaumaturgy would be doable though for that long.

This is not something I would allow at my table for several reasons. Firstly a maneuver must create an aspect that can be removed. Part of the maneuver mechanics is that the target may take an action to try to remove said aspect. If an aspect is likely to last the entire combat (or longer) with no way of reversing it then it's a consequence. Secondly this just isn't any fun. The "bam, suddenly the climax of the story is completely pointless" spell is rarely fun.

[Delmorian]

To those who have posted:
Thank You, your comments are greatly appreciated and they have helped me in my development of this idea.

In reference to the "Mental Image" I am using... I do in fact see its in the "Time = water / Time passing = stream" concept, and I use metaphors of skipping a rock for the combat thamaturgy time hop.

I also had another idea for its use... Hanging Spells. Figure there is a moment, after the completion of a ceremony, before the spell goes off and causes the wall of sound, or the light show, or the creation of the Hero Feast. So, if I do a spell with full ceremony, all the bells and whistles, and have THAT inside a circle, which is creating a magic "cyst" construction outside the time stream, linked to... say, a tattoo, where the spell is held in abeyance, drawing energy from me to maintain the "cyst" until I "collapse the state" and the spell completes. This could be a way to do the big prep ceremonies and be able to take the effects with you. For instance, set up a couple of really good sleep spells or floods of water, and have them on your person to get out of jams. Perfect to combatize the fields of magic you have little skill in, but still want to use. I know, its a serious "Find rule, work loophole, bend rule over" maneuverer, but there are several folks in my game group like that, and I have to keep up, just to survive the new and higher level of death the GM hands out, to keep pace with the guys who can one shot the unique monster the GM has spent several days slaving over to please us. Its a vicious cycle.

[knnn]

No, slowing down is 'swimming against the current'.  You can move at the same rate of speed as everyone else does.  You can go forward faster.  You can pop your head up and look ahead or behind you as you travel (handy, that).  But the second (sorry!) you begin to go against the current, even if it's just to let other people catch up... you're violating the Law.

Now, you could legally play perceptual games; confuse someone's awareness of how much time is passing.  (You're not meddling with their mind directly; only influencing what they perceive, like a time-hologram surrounding them.)

I doubt slowing down time for yourself (making the world go faster) is against the 6th law.  Consider that you can "easily" do this by traveling at relativistic speeds even without magic.

[stabbald]

This brings an interesting question to my mind. Are Council trails detailed in the books? I wonder if there are eldritch lawyers lurking around for questions like these. If there are, then they probably have some kind of precedent. If they do have a precedent, then where are they kept?

It would be interesting if there was some legal tome or council sub organization that wizards could consult for more clarification.

[sandchigger]

At least two trials are (at least partially) shown in Proven Guilty, with the book opening at the last half of one and ending on another.

[Bruce Coulson]

Although travelling at relativistic speeds will appear to slow you down, for a living being this would be the province of magic, not science.  (And thus altering the current around you.)

Now, if your group is okay with that not being a violation, then the table is correct.  But I think the Wardens would get concerned about someone who is shading that close to a violation.

[Tedronai]

I'd put it right up there with animal zombies: worrisome, but technically not against the Laws.

[knnn]

Note that you can also enter the NN at places where the time is passing slower/faster, and thus gain a similar effect (P.G.)

[Bruce Coulson]

But when you access the Never-Never, you're not putting your mortal magick directly against the flow of time.  You're merely taking advantage of a slower (or faster) stream that you can hop to.  Perfectly legal.

[Vars]

If you look up the laws in the players handbook, I don't remember the name right now, it says that it is NOT against the laws to go forward in time. It is frowned upon because if anyone were to travel forward in time, they would have a tremendous temptation to then flow back to their own present when they got there with the knowledge the future gave them. Think Marty McFly in Back to the Future, the sports almanac that lets Biff bet on ever winner for 20 years. What would you do if you knew the future?