Difficulty of casting out a Denarian "shadow"?

[zenten]

I have a PC exorcist (focused practitioner) whom will be trying to get the little voice inside an innocent's head from a coin out.  I know the coin can always be called if it's not in use, but surely the voice and whatnot can be removed until it is, right?  If so, what would the complexity of the ritual be?

[Tedronai]

The shadow cannot exist outside the mind of its host, so you're aiming for a straight-up taken-out result.
The entity you're up against (the imprinted shadow of a fallen angel) is assumedly substantially powerful in the field of a battle of wills.

You're probably looking at a range of mid-30s to low-40s
edit: numbers based on Victor Sells' Heart-Exploding Spell, with the assumption that the shadow of a Fallen Angel has a few tricks they can throw in to make things more difficult for you

[Cyberchihuahua]

Technically, you would have to take out the Fallen, and the holder of the coin if they were resisting you. Its been said in the books more than once that the only way to get rid of them is to willingly let go of the coin. The mere shadow of Lasical was only gotten rid of by her effectively taking herself out.

[Tedronai]

Then again, Dresden was pretty near certain that Victor Sells' Heart-Exploding Spell was impossible, too.
Lash was 'removed' when Dresden suffered crippling brain damage that just so happened to only affect the regions Lash was inhabiting (game mechanically, a concession on Lash's part).

But, yeah, that 30s-40s is if the host is more-or-less cooperating, or at least staying neutral.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Its been said in the books more than once that the only way to get rid of them is to willing let go of the coin.

Not just that, but Micheal said that Harry would have to give up the coin AND all of his magic power (the thing Lash was using to tempt him) and never use them again. Only then would he be rid of the shadow. Lash self sacrifice was a way around that.

   Also, unless the "Fallen touched" has instituted a way to block the coins power (as with Dresdens circle), then the shadow isn't cut off from the Fallen, and can draw upon all of its power.

   All in all I'd say, a PC just whipping up a spell to get rid of it would be impossible. It would severely reduce the powerlevel and creepiness of the most powerful monster in the game. If such a spell were possible, no one would ever need to worry about the coins again.
   If you want to end the whispers of the fallens shadow, you have two options. 1) Throw away the coin and permanently forsake the thing the Fallen was using to tempt you. 2) find a "plot device" level NPC to do it for you, and be ready to be ITS bitch for eternity instead.

[admiralducksauce]

It's way easier to beat the holder in some form of mental or social combat and set their Taken Out so that they willingly give up the coin.  Not that such a route has to be EASY; it'd just be EASIER.

[zenten]

OK, what's I'm going for is for the exorcist to see this as a simple possession (barring a really good assessment roll when using The Sight), and to think that the exorcism worked, for a time.  It should also be enough to piss off the Denarian trapped in the coin.  Does that seem feasible for some sort of Rituals roll?

[tymire]

Possibly, but why doesn't the fallen just take control of the person?  You know it's fairly obvious when they are acting with the 4 eyes or so....   Trying to keep one bound I would think would be an extreme act of stupidity.

Seems like it might be better for you to just use some other type of never never critter that can possess people.

Also trying to use magic to go into someone's head and force out a demon gets really close to a couple laws.  Regardless if it's good for the person or not.  You could blast them mentally and damage them enough that they are a turnip after, but you couldn't look to see if it worked or force them to do something.....  If they are a turnip they definitely are not fighting the fallen anymore on any level so would think it would be quite happy.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

OK, what's I'm going for is for the exorcist to see this as a simple possession (barring a really good assessment roll when using The Sight), and to think that the exorcism worked, for a time.  It should also be enough to piss off the Denarian trapped in the coin.  Does that seem feasible for some sort of Rituals roll?

    For this I'd just make it a spell that does mental stress, with the taken out result being "temporarily banished". This is prettymuch the same thing Dresden kept doing with Lashs shadow.
    The problem, again, comes from the fact that, unless you have a way to disconnect the shadow from the coin, you aren't dealing with the shadow, you're dealing with the Fallen. The only reason Lash was even as weak as she was, was that she couldn't draw on the power of the coin, because it was locked away in a circle.

[zenten]

    For this I'd just make it a spell that does mental stress, with the taken out result being "temporarily banished". This is prettymuch the same thing Dresden kept doing with Lashs shadow.
    The problem, again, comes from the fact that, unless you have a way to disconnect the shadow from the coin, you aren't dealing with the shadow, you're dealing with the Fallen. The only reason Lash was even as weak as she was, was that she couldn't draw on the power of the coin, because it was locked away in a circle.

That's a good point.  I think having the exorcist be able to figure out that there's a power source somewhere else for the possession (and be able to track it down) would be in line then.

[Wolfwood2]

Technically, you would have to take out the Fallen, and the holder of the coin if they were resisting you. Its been said in the books more than once that the only way to get rid of them is to willing let go of the coin. The mere shadow of Lasical was only gotten rid of by her effectivly taking herself out.

Though that does not have to be true IYDG (in your Dresden game).

While suitably dramatic for a long arc with Harry in the books, I'm not sure the book versions of the Denarians are necessarily the best tool for every game.  If it's better for the story for taking out a Denarian shadow to be less of a big deal, then it can be.  The table may not want to spend multiple major milestones on this bit of business.

Fortunately, even in the canon universe they are supposed to have radically different capabilites and approaches.  We could say that Lasical was especially good at leaving shadows in peoples' heads, and it isn't so hard to get rid of other Denarians.

[Cyberchihuahua]

Though that does not have to be true IYDG (in your Dresden game).

Fortunately, even in the canon universe they are supposed to have radically different capabilites and approaches.  We could say that Lasical was especially good at leaving shadows in peoples' heads, and it isn't so hard to get rid of other Denarians.

That is a VERY good point. Tessa's crew is known for taking Eager host, and then burning them out quickly. Maybe they have never wrestled with a strong will and lack a serious grounding in possessing someone like that, or have never even considered getting good at it because they can always get a new host. Magog, for example, might be easier to root out than Lasical.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

That's a good point.  I think having the exorcist be able to figure out that there's a power source somewhere else for the possession (and be able to track it down) would be in line then.

    You actually might be able to cover this without your character even knowing about it. If your exorcism takes place within a circle and the coin happens to be in the girls dresser, then this works for severing the link and all you'd have to worry about is the shadow.
    Of course in that instance the link is only broken till the exorcism is finished and there's nothing stopping the coin from just casting a new shadow as soon as you break the circle, but a smart Fallen would probably lay low for a bit and let you think you beat it.
    From the exorcists perspective, it was a mid level demon that he successfully did away with... Until it comes back for revenge.

[Tedronai]

    Of course in that instance the link is only broken till the exorcism is finished and there's nothing stopping the coin from just casting a new shadow as soon as you break the circle, but a smart Fallen would probably lay low for a bit and let you think you beat it.

That would, as I understand it, require a second handling of the coin.  Otherwise, Lash would've popped back as soon as Harry dug up the coin.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

No, because Lash was dead. Actually burned out of Harrys mind through her own choice. If a spell forces the shadow out, it can't break the link the fallen has to the target. That can only be done through free will. Either the holder gives up the coin and the source of temptation, or the Shadow destroys the link. No third party can do it for you.