Ritual complexity

[Moriden]

I've noticed a large disparity in peoples opinions on this matter so out of curiosity id like to see what people think.

What complexity level do you believe that a skilled character should be able to accomplish quickly?
1] <5
2] Lore +modifiers [3-15]
3] Assessments are easy! 30+


Do you think that as the complexity level increases the time to do the ritual increases as well, and if so is this represented by the necessity of getting more assessments or a base increase in time spent?

Finally how long do you think a ritual that is under the complexity you can commonly handle, ie <lore, should take?
1] Exchanges
2] minutes
3] st whim

[sinker]

I've noticed a large disparity in peoples opinions on this matter so out of curiosity id like to see what people think.

What complexity level do you believe that a skilled character should be able to accomplish quickly?
1] <5
2] Lore +modifiers [3-15]
3] Assessments are easy! 30+

Depends on what you mean by quickly. If you mean with no preparation at all (I.E. the shortest possible time that thaumaturgy takes to cast) then I'd say Lore plus appropriate specializations and foci, which really should be in the range of 3-9 or 10 unless we're playing in a high powered game.

Do you think that as the complexity level increases the time to do the ritual increases as well, and if so is this represented by the necessity of getting more assessments or a base increase in time spent?

I'd say this seems to me to be the nature of how the thaumaturgy system works. As the complexity rises so would the prep time (you have to do more and different things to meet that complexity), but in addition the greater the complexity, the higher the amount of power necessary to cast the spell and the more "rounds" that must be spent safely funneling power into the ritual.

Finally how long do you think a ritual that is under the complexity you can commonly handle, ie <lore, should take?
1] Exchanges
2] minutes
3] st whim

I'd go with number two/three/none of the above on this. It's up to the group to figure out how quickly something something can reasonably be done, but I'd think minutes otherwise thaumaturgy would be much more viable as a combat option, and that's just really not what it's designed for.

[UmbraLux]

I've noticed a large disparity in peoples opinions on this matter so out of curiosity id like to see what people think.

What complexity level do you believe that a skilled character should be able to accomplish quickly?

How quickly?

• 1] <5 - This is the realm of evocation speed thaumaturgy and probably a bit low.  They should be able to get at least one declaration in, more if they spend a round setting up.  It should be nearly identical to an evocation spell and be capable of similar numbers of shifts.
  
• 2] Lore +modifiers [3-15] - With an exchange or two to set up this should be easy.
  
• 3] Assessments are easy! 30+ - With help and several hours to several days of prep time, thirty is within reach.

Do you think that as the complexity level increases the time to do the ritual increases as well, and if so is this represented by the necessity of getting more assessments or a base increase in time spent?

Yes and yes.

Finally how long do you think a ritual that is under the complexity you can commonly handle, ie <lore, should take?
1] Exchanges
2] minutes
3] st whim

Unless they have something speeding it up (Sponsored magic, a stunt, prepped ahead of time, whatever) it's a minute or two even for an easy ritual.  (Remember, 'exchanges' aren't a set amount of time.  They may well be measured in minutes.  Social combat is one example.)

[Wolfwood2]

Finally how long do you think a ritual that is under the complexity you can commonly handle, ie <lore, should take?
1] Exchanges
2] minutes
3] st whim

My rule of thumb is this:

Wards, veils, and maneuvers to place aspects on yourself or the environment can generally be done in exchanges.  Drawing a magic circle around yourself and activating it is the sort of thing practitioners seem able to pull off pretty quickly.

Anything that would be 'opposed', that is summoning or trying to impose aspects or consequences or transformations and the like will take a while.  (Though last game, we did impose a rather nasty surprise on a baddie we were waiting to ambush by drawing a circle in advance on a place we knew he would walk and then having two thaumurgists combine to activate a ward around him in one exchange when he stepped into it.  But I think that qualifies as 'prepping in advance'.)

[wyvern]

(Disclaimer: this represents my own opinions, and has only been written as "fact" because it's annoying to add appropriate "in my opinion" or "my interpretation is" statements to every sentence.  So please take the following with the appropriate grain of salt; your mileage may vary.)

A quick ritual is up to somewhere around lore +2 or so; you can burn a fate point or accept a minor consequence to push a bit beyond your normal limits without having to slow down too much.  This requires a minimum of a minute to set up (call that maybe six to ten exchanges if there's physical combat going on at the time, during which time anyone can disrupt things), followed by however many exchanges are needed to call up and control the necessary amount of power.  Most uses of ritual magic should fall into this category.

A normal ritual tops out at around lore +8; if you're running purely off of fate points, consequences, and declarations, you can probably get such a thing set up in five to ten minutes; if you're using maneuvers, you need at least a full scene for each.  Under normal circumstances, when you're not in any kind of rush, this will take two or three hours to set up.

A powerful ritual runs up to around lore +14; for a practicing blood mage this can still be fairly rapid, requiring only a full scene (maybe 15 minutes?) of preparation before casting can commence.  More normally a ritual of this sort would require a day or three of preparation, including at least one scene with more than a simple conflict to it; whether that's negotiating with Bob for assistance, or fighting off angry corvids to get an unhatched raven egg, or tracking down and purchasing a fireplace poker that's been in use for at least 100 years... Regardless, unless you're taking serious shortcuts (i.e. blood magic), this isn't the sort of ritual where you can just roll the dice for a bunch of maneuvers and declare it done.

Anything beyond that level is an extreme ritual and should require a full adventure to just get the preparation done; even for a blood mage, operating at this level of power requires either a fairly significant cult following or an actual sacrifice (and corresponding first law issues), either of which come with their own problems.

The possession of an appropriate sponsored magic may, in some cases, allow some reductions in preparation or casting time, though whether any given spell gets such benefits is up to GM whim.

I'd also note that just drawing a magic circle is a lore-based maneuver, not a ritual, and can thus be done in combat without too much trouble.

[Moriden]

Lore plus appropriate specializations and foci, which really should be in the range of 3-9 or 10 unless we're playing in a high powered game

Lore 0-5    Assuming any caster will have a minimum of 3
Focus item 0-5  A character who wants to do this could easily have a 2-3 without going overboard
Sponsored magic bonus 0-1   Expensive if this is all you want but stacks on top of normal bonuses.
Specializations 0-3  one from thaum, can go to 2 with one level of refinement
Fate point 0-2    
Sponsor debt 0-2
magic circle declaration 2+  takes one exchange?

3-19+ complexity with no preparation

lets say the same charecter with thaumaturgy -3, refinement -1, sponsored magic place of power -2 [-3 if don't have to physically be there],
focus items: 2 complexity, 2 control
Specializations: Complexity +2, Control +1  [+1 to both from place of power]
Discipline and lore 5

Without using a fate point magic circle or sponsor debt has complexity 10 with no prep. And can channel 5 shifts of power an exchange. you could easily push this to 15 and 3 exchanges when necessary. Thus looking at a complexity 10 ritual in 2 "exchanges" usable an infinite number of time with zero prep.

Now is this an abuse of the system or working as intended?

[Tedronai]

Page 261, 'Inherent Limitations'
"The first is a matter of time. Thaumaturgy
is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a
minute or more..."

[UmbraLux]

Now is this an abuse of the system or working as intended?

Some of the specifics are 'iffy' at best but, in general, it's working as intended.

Just remember:
 - Given the number of powers and refinements called out, this is a fairly high powered character.
 - Some preparation has been done (place of power for example).
 - It's not free if you're going into sponsor debt, therefor it's not infinite.  (Yes, the GM does need to compel the debt incurred.)
 - Drawing 5 shifts of power per exchange will have consequences sooner or later...

A more realistic number of shifts is ~9 (Lore 5, focus 1, specialization 1, declaration 2) plus any fate points spent on aspects or any sponsor debt.  Even then, most thaumaturgists will take several exchanges to draw the power.

[Moriden]

fastest of spells taking a
minute or more..."

How long is an exchange in combat? 3 seconds, a minute, ive seen systems that span that range.

What if you have thaum at evo speeds from sponsored magic? can you then just say that you need to have the complexity and can cast it it "combat rounds?

The book is tragically vague on these details.

[Tedronai]

You don't ever get thaumaturgy JUST at evocation's speeds.  You get it with evocation's speed AND METHODS.  Meaning that you're then casting it as you would any other evocation.

[Moriden]

You don't ever get thaumaturgy JUST at evocation's speeds.  You get it with evocation's speed AND METHODS.  Meaning that you're then casting it as you would any other evocation.

I am aware of that. A concise definition of what that means however is not in the book. it was also only one of the several questions i posed.

Though on this point what exactly do you think that means.

Duration = one exchange per shift, or using the thaumaturgical time chart?
Wards or blocks?
Stress hit or not?
Control roll once or multiple rounds until you reach the complexity cap?

Several of those are obvious a few aren't.

[UmbraLux]

How long is an exchange in combat? 3 seconds, a minute, ive seen systems that span that range.

One exchange is the time it takes for all involved to act once.  This could be seconds in melee combat, half a minute or more in a chase situation, several minutes at a party, or even days in a legislature.  The game moves at the speed of plot.

What if you have thaum at evo speeds from sponsored magic? can you then just say that you need to have the complexity and can cast it it "combat rounds?

The book is tragically vague on these details.

See YS288's sidebar for details.  Noteworthy points include:  "The spell is cast like evocation..." and "...effects are broader-reaching..."

Essentially, evocation speed & method thaumaturgy allow you to do things like divinations, summoning, wards, or transformations*.  There are some inherent limitations pointed out on YS287 including must align with sponsor's agenda and flavor of power and sponsor debt is another limitation.

Duration = one exchange per shift, or using the thaumaturgical time chart?
Wards or blocks?

See the sidebar mentioned above.

Stress hit or not?

Nope.  That's one reason it's still thaumaturgy and not evocation.

Control roll once or multiple rounds until you reach the complexity cap?

Same sidebar, "all done in one exchange".

*Re: transformations - From Harry's point of view, this is what Billy is doing when he changes shape.

[Tedronai]

The methods of evocation include taking a stress hit.  If you're casting with evocation's methods, you take a stress hit.

[UmbraLux]

The methods of evocation include taking a stress hit.  If you're casting with evocation's methods, you take a stress hit.

The definition of "With Evocation's Methods and Speed" is in the sidebar on YS288.  It doesn't include stress.  

Edit:  Do note, some sponsored magics can add to or be used as evocations.  Those are evocations though, not thaumaturgy with evocation's methods & speed.  Adding hellfire to a fire blast is one example - that is still evocation and does cause stress.

[bitterpill]

Casting Thaumaturgy at evocation means will obviously include stress, as mental stress is the main means and tool of casting evocations. The timescale though is the question you can summon someone small with Seliee Magic say this takes 7 shifts of power with the duration of a turn there does not seem much you could do with a small fairy in one turn.