Offensive options for physical combat, or "Is Fists made of Fail?"

[nearchus]

Magic is a function of intent.  If a player makes an attack in a way that would reasonably lead to unconsciousness rather than death, and clearly states that is the intent of their attack, I would generally allow it...but again, if the PC gets too many shifts, or uses too much power, then there will be other consequences.

Weapons and Guns are another matter.  As the song says, 'handguns are made for killing'.  It's very difficult to make a non-lethal attack with a device intended to kill people.  I'd require Shifts to be used to convert damage to non-lethal, on a 2-1 ratio.  (3-1 with Guns.)  There's a reason police don't reach for their sidearms in every confrontation.

Fists, on the other hand, are non-lethal.  It's possible to beat someone to death with your bare hands, but it takes time and a lot of determination.

The point is that no extra rules are necessary for this. A *player* gets to choose the results, not the character. If a player is consistently choosing results only because they're beneficial to the character, and this isn't what the rest of the table finds reasonable, then it's unreasonable. Sometimes a person gets shot once and dies, sometimes they get shot a half dozen times and live. Both are "reasonable" consequences and are allowed for within the system. What would be unreasonable is if a player decides that he doesn't want his character to be a murderer after blowing up a building filled with people. Even if some (most?) of the people survive there is no way for the character to have known that they would. The character is no less irresponsible despite the act of the player to mitigate that responsibility. And the table should come up with what they believe would be reasonable results based on the action involved (this includes the GM and players, or just the GM if the players prefer). But the bottom line is that the rule isn't that you get to pick *anything*. You get to pick any result that is reasonable. There are very important distinctions at work here. The player chooses the result, and not the character. And the result must be reasonable.

But this is all really way off topic, for which I apologize (since I'm almost entirely responsible for the tangent). As to why Fists aren't fail, it's less a matter of them being non-lethal (or less lethal) but one of escalation (for which lethality is a major factor). Pulling out a weapon, any weapon, is the universal sign of "This just got serious." If that isn't the message you want to be sending, then fists are your main option.

[DFJunkie]

But this is all really way off topic, for which I apologize (since I'm almost entirely responsible for the tangent).

It's not your fault.  "All threads eventually devolve into First Law debates" is this location's theme.

[devonapple]

It's not your fault.  "All threads eventually devolve into First Law debates" is this location's theme.

Did we come up with a clever phrase for that yet?

[Kommisar]

Thinking about this some more, I think the other main factor in thinking of "Fists being made of Fail", that has already been touched on by a few, is what sort of game you are running.  Namely, what sort of characters do you have in your group at one level of power and the focus of the game itself.  If you are running a fairly low key, mortal game, Fists is going to be a very valid skill to have.  By the same token, if you are running said game with a running theme of realism to it, walking around your local city/town strapped like a Spec Ops team has some severe consequences.

And, if you don't believe me, go out to a parking lot of a local strip mall with some bopper swords and start some sparring up.  No need for excessive yelling or dramatics.  Then time how long it is before at least one patrol car pulls up to see what is going on.  Personal experience from my college days can vouch that this will happen.  Sometimes inside 10 minutes.  Some times with a fairly large response if some citizen reported this sparring as armed gang violence.  True story on that one BTW; we were covered by three 9mm's while we explained to the lead officer what we were doing in front of my friends apartment.  

Amp this up to carrying around actual, real weapons and imagine how well that will go over.  Amp it up again to actually discharging your weapons and now you really have some attention.  Guns are loud.  Most people getting hacked into by a sharpened length of metal are loud.

BUT, if you game is higher powered, then, yea, mortals with Fists are just going to be less useful.  The game I am running has 5 Submerged level wizards that are part of a White Council black ops squad hitting Red Court holdings, kidnapping black-magic cultists and doing other such dirty jobs that a normal Warden force isn't well suited towards.  Needless to say, against most of the opposition they run into, duking it out with bare knuckle hand-to-hand combat does not happen much.  And for good reason.

At this level of power, if you want a Fist oriented character, you need to add in some supernatural bang to the mix.  Like cooking up some chi (or whatever) powers for a mystical kung-fu master.  Then throw in some good stunts to boot.

[Drachasor]

BUT, if you game is higher powered, then, yea, mortals with Fists are just going to be less useful.  The game I am running has 5 Submerged level wizards that are part of a White Council black ops squad hitting Red Court holdings, kidnapping black-magic cultists and doing other such dirty jobs that a normal Warden force isn't well suited towards.  Needless to say, against most of the opposition they run into, duking it out with bare knuckle hand-to-hand combat does not happen much.  And for good reason.

At this level of power, if you want a Fist oriented character, you need to add in some supernatural bang to the mix.  Like cooking up some chi (or whatever) powers for a mystical kung-fu master.  Then throw in some good stunts to boot.

One Stunt and they have weapon 3 attacks since they can use a two-handed weapon for what it is worth.  I think the stunt that turns Fists into a general-purpose defense stat is also great.  Certainly nothing beyond that is needed.

[Barrington]

One Stunt and they have weapon 3 attacks since they can use a two-handed weapon for what it is worth.  I think the stunt that turns Fists into a general-purpose defense stat is also great.  Certainly nothing beyond that is needed.

Very true, those are the stunts I took for my Fists monster character. The other things to do are make sure Might and Endurance are sky-high (Superb and Great respectively for Bear) and take some Endurance and Grappling stunts as well. When you get into deep-submerged games, though, sometimes you go up against creatures with Toughness powers that make fists hard to use. That's when you want the chi/magical punch gauntlet/holy fire/etc powers to satisfy those Catches.

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YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!

[DFJunkie]

Or get yourself a Sword of the Cross.  As a GM I hate those things.

[bitterpill]

Or get yourself a Sword of the Cross.  As a GM I hate those things.

As as a player I love them.

[Tedronai]

...BRASS KNUCKLES OF THE CROSS!!!

[bitterpill]

No the best names for brass knuckles are LOVE and PEACE.

[Tedronai]

Well, Love is clearly Amoracchius reforged (as has been hinted to have happened at least a few times in the last ~2000 years), this time in the form of brass knuckles.
Peace, though...I'm thinking Fidelacchius (the sword of Faith) is the closest parallel (the other option being the sword of Hope)...

[DFJunkie]

Well, we already know that to be chosen to wield a Sword you need to be related to royalty, but to bear both Love and Peace you'll need someone who's polydactyl as well. 

Now, Love and Hope would work.  I wonder if Sanya will trade out for Fidel... Fidil... the katana.