Offensive options for physical combat, or "Is Fists made of Fail?"

[tymire]

Also hate to bring RL into it, but most of the armed crime commited in America is done with guns that are not legally aquired....

[Ren]

As a note, brass knuckles aren't the only Bonus that can be added to fists, have you considered the merits of a finely crafted pair of Gauntlets? Great on the attack, and can also be used to defend. If the character has any kind of Thaumaturgy then you can enhance them further with magic to aid in offense and defense or even bypassing catches, if you know what you are facing. Sure they can be kind of noticeable but wear a nice duster to cover the majority of them and cover the hand in an over-sized love. Or better go modern and make it out of Kevlar and/or Neptunic http://www.neptunic.com/ then it won't stand out near as much. fyi the company that makes those suits is working on a new material that is as thin as cloth and works just about as well as chain mail! I think theres a video somewhere on the board I'll have to dig up.

Point being, there are ways to make fists a more viable option.

On another note for "Claws" it doesn't actually have to be a Claw, it could just be exceptionally hard and heavy hands that hurt people more when punching.

[Team8Mum]

Also hate to bring RL into it, but most of the armed crime commited in America is done with guns that are not legally aquired....

The fact remains that there are good reasons for not carrying weapons IF the G.M. imposes them. For example the PC finally track down the White court vampire they are after to the 'gentleman emporium' he owns and go in loaded for bear, only to have their showdown 'intercepted' by the SWAT team who have been tipped off my an observant bounder because some one messed up their deceit check to conceal their weapons...

After a while the PC's will get a reputation with Law enforcement and find them selves the 'victims' of random stop and search.

So there are ways of redressing the balance if you have a Gun-bunny Player and you want your game to be more cerebral.

After all Dresden is a 'wizard Private eye' not a 'Wizard Gunslinger'  so regardless of the realism of the mechanic - that should set the tone of the game.

[DFJunkie]

Yeah, you can also wear sap gloves (also called knuckle dusters).  They would probably be at least Weapon:1, which isn't bad for relatively concealable armaments.  Also, given that they usually have plating on the back of the hand they'd probably allow the wearer to defend against Weapons attacks.

As has been pointed out though, yes, Fists is mechanically behind Weapons, Guns, and Evocation (pretty much in that order) in terms of offensive utility.  That is as it should be.

Now, if you have a character who is primarily Fists-based as a GM you could "correct" this imbalance by occasionally playing to the Fists character's strengths.  Have a conflict take place in a high-security atmosphere, where firearms and weapons are unavailable.  Have a potential contact (perhaps one of the more manly Seelie) challenge the group to a boxing match.  Just do something every now and then to make sure that your Fist user(s) has the upper hand and balance is maintained.

[Bruce Coulson]

Fists avoid Social combat with law enforcement officials.

Fists are always with you, and can be taken into areas where people are routinely searched or subjected to metal detectors.

Fists can be used to remove weapons wielded by others.

Yes, they aren't as effective at inflicting damage without appropriate Stunts or Powers.  This is correct both cinematically and realistically.  But they have a flexibility that Weapons or Guns lack.  It's much harder to conceal your intent if you arrive at a location bristling with weapons...

[Kommisar]

Exactly.

In the game I run, my players know well that I reserve the right to moderate their choices for "Taken Out" depending on how they do it.  I will not allow a continued string of non-lethal outcomes from 10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47.  Especially against vanilla humans.  And this is well within the stated rules and is the job of the GM.  DFRPG (and the FATE system as a whole) is a more cooperative game than many RPGs; but it does not mean that the GM has to throw out the consequences for any of their players actions just because the players want to.

As for a need to re-balance Fists... no.  There is a reason that we equip soldiers and police officers with firearms.  I don't care how many nights a week you train at your dojo, a .22 cal is a much more lethal weapon than your punch or kick.  Yea, yea, there is always the fluke events.  The guy that gets shot in the head and lives or the guy that died from one punch instantly.  But those are statistical outliers and, in game mechanics, are represented by the +4 or -4 die rolls with, probably, fate points being spent.  But, if I had to choose between being shot by a .22 cal round or taking a punch from Jet Li or Mike Tyson, I'm taking the punch every single day of the week.  And for a good reason.

[bitterpill]

Exactly.

In the game I run, my players know well that I reserve the right to moderate their choices for "Taken Out" depending on how they do it.  I will not allow a continued string of non-lethal outcomes from 10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47.

Dosen't this just mean they use spirit or air attack against the enemy rather than fire. 

[nearchus]

Dosen't this just mean they use spirit or air attack against the enemy rather than fire. 

I've seen this mentioned before, but I'm a little unclear how Spirit or Air attacks are any less lethal (unless the characters tend to use less Power when they use these attacks). The Power of the spell determines how lethal it is, not the element. And despite claims to the contrary, beating someone with a heavy object, or pure force attacks, are just as lethal as setting them on fire, cutting, or shooting them. Less force does less damage (like punching someone as opposed to hitting them with a car), but equal force (or in DFRPG mechanics weapon rating or power for spells) does equal damage. But I guess you're less likely to set them on fire.

[bitterpill]

Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack. 

[DFJunkie]

"I smack him with a Weapon:4 blast of pure force.  Being well aware of the potential for this much force to kill him, I hit him off center, on the shoulder, so he's whipped around violently.  He's unconscious, probably has whiplash, but alive."

(Harry's force rings are presented as Weapon:4 in the Enchanted Item example, and he's blasted vanilla mortals with them on several occasions.  When he mentions it, he usually talks up the "taking care to not hit them lethally" angle.  The above example is practically a quote from the beginning of Summer Knight, when he takes out the uzi wielding goon with his ring.)

"I call up a ton of volts but low amps and shock the shit out of him with Weapon:4.  He pisses himself, twitches for a few minutes, and collapses in a heap."

For instance.

[zenten]

Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack.  

The first one is a Fourth Law violation.  The second example is one that could potentially kill.

[bitterpill]

I was think more on the physical effects of the lights rather than overt mind control, it is human nature to stare into lights so if you make lights that are very enthraling by say being the apothosess of lights people will stare into them and forget about everything else without direct thought control.

[zenten]

I was think more on the physical effects of the lights rather than overt mind control, it is human nature to stare into lights so if you make lights that are very enthraling by say being the apothosess of lights people will stare into them and forget about everything else without direct thought control.

That's really more of a manouver to cause distraction than an attack.

[nearchus]

Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack. 

I'm unfamiliar with the "Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack" but I assume it's a block on all actions (and therefore not actually an attack)? And by "no longer breath attack" I assume you mean something like Orbius. Both of these effects can be done with other elements (fire is difficult, but not impossible). But the distinction is that you're using the power of the spell to do something other than forcefully attack your opponent. Using blocks and maneuvers to subdue an opponent is certainly a way to keep your attacks less lethal.

"I smack him with a Weapon:4 blast of pure force.  Being well aware of the potential for this much force to kill him, I hit him off center, on the shoulder, so he's whipped around violently.  He's unconscious, probably has whiplash, but alive."

(Harry's force rings are presented as Weapon:4 in the Enchanted Item example, and he's blasted vanilla mortals with them on several occasions.  When he mentions it, he usually talks up the "taking care to not hit them lethally" angle.  The above example is practically a quote from the beginning of Summer Knight, when he takes out the uzi wielding goon with his ring.)

"I call up a ton of volts but low amps and shock the shit out of him with Weapon:4.  He pisses himself, twitches for a few minutes, and collapses in a heap."

For instance.

I'm unclear how this is an argument against what I've been claiming. I'm not saying that not killing someone with what could be lethal weapons isn't reasonable. You can stab and shoot people without killing them. What I'm saying is that if a character consistently uses lethal forces (even Fists) in a reckless manner and consistently claims that people won't die from this, I'd find this unreasonable. And I'm also saying that Spirit and Air are inherently no less lethal than Fire, Earth or Water elements. You can use them all in controlled ways in order to not kill people (again, Fire is slightly more difficult in some cases), but you can also shoot someone in the shoulder, or attempt to stab someone in a place that won't kill them. It'd be a reasonable result if the player wanted that person to die accidentally anyway, and it'd be reasonable for them to claim that they live. I just don't see how using Spirit or Air in the same way that someone would use "10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47" (to quote Kommisar) would result in anything less lethal.

[Bruce Coulson]

Magic is a function of intent.  If a player makes an attack in a way that would reasonably lead to unconsciousness rather than death, and clearly states that is the intent of their attack, I would generally allow it...but again, if the PC gets too many shifts, or uses too much power, then there will be other consequences.

Weapons and Guns are another matter.  As the song says, 'handguns are made for killing'.  It's very difficult to make a non-lethal attack with a device intended to kill people.  I'd require Shifts to be used to convert damage to non-lethal, on a 2-1 ratio.  (3-1 with Guns.)  There's a reason police don't reach for their sidearms in every confrontation.

Fists, on the other hand, are non-lethal.  It's possible to beat someone to death with your bare hands, but it takes time and a lot of determination.