Monsters With Multiple Actions Each Exchange

[devonapple]

Sometimes a monster from another RPG source (cough cough D&D cough) will have regular actions, and then attacks or effects which can be done at will, while it is doing other actions.

Are folks inclined to port over such powers at all?

I can think of a few ways to build such powers in DFRPG:

1) Don't worry about it. It's a game. If the GM does not abuse it, the players shouldn't be too hosed.

2) Buy up the power by 1 to 2 Refresh: 1 to make something possible as a Supplemental Action, and 2 to make it a Free Action.

3) Buy the power as an Aspect and Tag/Invoke for Effect as needed.

[bitterpill]

Would it not de-rail the entire action economy, I think other than perhaps a weird interpretation of riposte (can counter as many times as you want after the first) you cannot attack more than once a turn. I suppose combining an attack and a manoeuvre might make sense so a poison attacks as well as damage but I would recon that would still need a spin in justification. If there was a way to attack twice a turn it should probably cost a fate point and probably be limited to once a scene.

[sinker]

I've tried it before and it was fine. I had my own version of the jade court, and since Chinese undead are often associated with bad luck I made it so one of them (the most physically focused) could do a bad luck maneuver before any action. I paid for it as a power and it was actually really fun. The players enjoyed the challenge and I enjoyed coming up with creative ways to inflict them with bad luck.

[devonapple]

Oh, no, we shouldn't combine Poison and Damage. I'm not advocating that. I'm talking about things like the Bad Luck field, or ambient environmental effects (which can have a variety of combat options) or something as simple as being made of fire.

[bitterpill]

Do you mean something like Aura of Fear that higher level undead get in D&D. If you were porting something like that to DFRP I would say anyone who dose not beat the monsters intimidate skill within the Area (not a roll just the skill) get the temparary aspect scared, this would probably be a -2 power potent but not game breaking as it would only give one free tag per enemy. 

[TheMouse]

Hand wavy system math suggests that an additional attack per turn is worth 2 Refresh. The math is as follows.

1 turn of action grants 2 shifts. Maneuvers do this, and full defense does this as well. (Obviously full defense can potentially net you a lot more than this if you are defending against multiple attackers, but the system gives preference to defense.)

1 Stunt gives 1 shift of offensive umph. 2 would provide 2 shifts, which is necessary to equal out to a full action.

Normally, powers are slightly cheaper than the collection of Stunts that would produce the same effect. A second full action is a big deal, so I'm inclined to let the difference fall under the margin of error. Additional actions are multiplicative, not additive.

I'd need to test this out to see if it's game breaking. My concern is that this would start a Consequence free-tagathon that would just drill right through people, especially if the user has some Strength powers and/or a big weapon.

[luminos]

It probably depends on the exact effect you are looking for.  Implementing anything as multiple actions per exchange is clumsy, but understandable if alternatives don't exist.  I think in many cases, you could find alternatives.

Example:  You want something that is so fast that it can hit someone multiple times in the time it takes the something to try to hit back.

Solution:  Give it a high weapon/fist skill, and narrate the results of a single attack roll as being several attacks.  An exchange is an abstract measurement of time, not a defined 1 "real" action per turn deal.

Example:  You want a monster that excretes a toxic gas, harming anyone near it.

Solution:  Give it a custom power that creates environmental damage in the same zone as itself, with immunity to that damage.  Cost is largely irrelevant, but consider how many points the environmental damage would be worth as its own "character" if you want to balance the encounter so that it isn't too difficult.

I can do more, if you like.

[sinker]

I am curious. How would you do a monster with control over luck? Simply have them "cast" maneuvers, and then attack?

[Tedronai]

High skills.

[sinker]

That would effect their own, positive luck, but not other's (or for that matter their own) bad luck.

[Tedronai]

Your target's bad luck as you attack them is represented by your high attack skill in that their bad luck makes it more likely for you to cause them harm, and more likely that you cause greater harm than they would otherwise

The bad luck of an individual targeting you is represented by your high defense skill in that their bad luck makes it less likely for them to cause you harm, and less likely that they cause as much harm as they would otherwise

More nebulous, less immediately harmful bad luck not coinciding with a more conventional form of attack is represented by a high attack skill performing a maneuver, or simulated via thaumaturgy (likely Ritual)

[wyvern]

Personally, I'd implement luck as just a critter with an appropriate aspect and a decent pile of fate points.  Use a bunch of invoke-for-effects to compel attacks to miss, or missed attacks to set things on fire or hit allies, or etc.  Of course, that will feed all of its fate points to your PCs, which should make for a dramatic and karma-ful battle.

[Drachasor]

Works best for NPCs, I think.  For players it is pretty abusable and I think would favor some sorts of players over others (such as those with strength bonuses).  For NPCs you are just making a guy more challenging and interesting.  As 4th Edition D&D rightly notes, this makes a solo encounter against a monster feel a LOT better and lessens the risk of having the guy kill off the whole party if you do it right -- you don't have to give him super-high skills that make his damage almost impossible to avoid.

Hmm, might be interesting to make high-end powers for different sorts of characters that allow this though.  Something to replicate the Archive keeping multiple Denarians busy and so forth.  But that would require a lot of work and playtesting to make equally attractive options for various character types.

If we go by the Death Curse Thaumaturgy in the book, YS 296, there's an interesting idea on how to make something like this though, but we are dealing with nebulous rules.  You could have a Thaumaturgy that had say X shifts put into it, perhaps placed an aspect on the scene, and you could draw out Y shifts at a time as kind of an Invocation to make an extra attack.  Not sure the best way to work it...but something like the following might be great:

Living Lightning Defense
This creates a semi-intelligent entity to protect an area.  The caster must call release this entity himself and it attacks intruders the caster mentally designates.

Type:  Thaumaturgy, Wards  (Not sure, they don't really go over thaumaturgies like this...guess it is most like a ward).

Complexity:  Varies base 15 for a duration of one day (I'm assuming 5 shifts to make the duration 1 day from the default of 1 scene for a maneuver, and the strength cost covers the maneuver for free).

Effect:  This protects an area with creature of lightning.  This creature remains dormant for the duration of the spell unless the caster activates it whereupon it attacks whomever the caster mentally desires it to and gives the area the aspect "Protected by Living Lightning" The entity has a base Strength of 10 and can make weapon 1 through X attacks with a discipline skill of X, where X is the caster's discipline (or perhaps Lore would be better).  The weapon rating is determined at the time an attack is made and reduces the strength of the entity by an equal amount.  So if the being makes a weapon 3 attack first, then its strength becomes 7.  Once its strength reaches 0, the spell has expended all of its energy and dissipates.

Maneuvers to get rid of the "Protected by Living Lightning" aspect reduce its strength by the number of shifts they exceed the Living Lightning's defenses.  It may otherwise not be attacked.

Variations:  Complexity may be increased to give the Living Lightning more strength or to increase the duration.

Hmm, too expensive?  Too cheap?  Might need some tweaking.  Very loosely based off something from the book.

Edit:  If we were going to price things for some sort of general purpose extra actions, I think you'd want to go with a fairly controlled system.  Something that let you make an attack or the like at a fixed strength....the only problem might be allowing maneuvers.  Extra maneuvers could get pretty darn powerful if you could make one every round since they can help you land hits.  Still, working with something like 2-3 stress attacks or a maneuver might be a good way to go, but that should still be confined to a pretty high level game.

Actually, maybe the best way to do something like this is with a Supreme Milestone or something if you want it for PCs.  This would give you the ability to choose a power from a special list.  This leaves it outside the realm of accidentally leading to brokenness which is important -- people like to act like min-maxers/powergamers/munchkins are the same or that the problems they expose can only happen on purpose.  This is NOT the case, as I discovered when I found out my 3.X Edition D&D Druid was as powerful as about half the party (I could probably equal everyone else put together for one combat if I had to) when I was just doing stuff by the basic book (no supplements).  This is why I sometimes seem overly worried about balance on here, because it is easy for someone to unintentionally make something OP or UP in any game if there's not much care taken in balancing things -- hard to fully get rid of the problem, but one can tone it down.  Anyhow, seems to me like almost any system in FATE for having extra actions for PCs could very easily get broken if one PC has it and others don't.  It also seems like something that is pretty darn rare in the fiction (The Archive is probably an excellent example of someone who can do multiple actions...and that's perhaps it, though the Senior Council probably can too).  So, seems to me it should be something where the GM decides when he wants it available and just gives everyone an upgrade to "awesome."  Given how Wizards work, of course, this is probably still best implemented as special powers that let you do something extra each exchange.

[devonapple]

There are a couple of effects I can see:

1) extra damage to an attack - this could be a simple Invoke of an Aspect: Flaming Body; Sandstorms Are Mine To Command; Uncanny Strike

2) maneuvers in the same round as an attack - this would have to be some sort of supplemental or free action, unless the creature has a power/feat that allows it to split shifts between an attack and a maneuver

3) simple damage shield, such that anyone who touches me gets hurt - this one is new, and I don't see anything like it in DFRPG, yet it is in the idiom for many fantastic/magical creatures, like fire elementals, demons, and more.

4) environmental damage effect - this has been mentioned before. I liked the Living Lightning effect.

The immediate example I wanted to stat was the aigamuxa conversion I just posted.

It has a power "In desert or sandy terrain, an aigamuxa can generate a powerful magical sandstorm around itself, which it can use to blind, cause damage, extinguish lights, or perform other maneuvers." This is supposed to be an effect it can generate while it is performing other actions.

I posted two options for making the power, neither of which could necessarily be used on a continuous basis while Fists attacks are going on, though creating a Scene Aspect could be done with either method:

A. Channelling (Sandstorms) [-2]
or
B. Custom Power: Summon Sandstorm [-3]:
- Breath Weapon (Sandstorms) [-2]
- Wide Breath [-2] Your breath weapon affects everyone in a single zone.
- Limited: requires ambient sand or other particulate matter [+1]

Do you mean something like Aura of Fear that higher level undead get in D&D. If you were porting something like that to DFRP I would say anyone who dose not beat the monsters intimidate skill within the Area (not a roll just the skill) get the temparary aspect scared, this would probably be a -2 power potent but not game breaking as it would only give one free tag per enemy. 

That would be a good one. Ferrovax would probably have something similar in his true form.

[UmbraLux]

Sometimes a monster from another RPG source (cough cough D&D cough) will have regular actions, and then attacks or effects which can be done at will, while it is doing other actions.

Are folks inclined to port over such powers at all?

A general rule of thumb I recommend for conversions - don't convert mechanics, convert flavor. 

Keeping that in mind (ignore me if you do want to convert mechanics), there are several options:

• Multiple attacks - give them a stunt / power with bonuses to spray attacks.
• Secondary effects - convert spin into an appropriate aspect, possibly at a better than normal ratio if paid for with a stunt or power.
• Invokable / Compel-able Aspects which affect one or more zones (many aura or field effects fit here)
• Sponsored magic's thaumaturgy at evocation speeds allows for a wide variety of effects which will last for longer periods of time and may represent 'second actions'

I'm sure there are other options.  I would avoid multiple action rolls for two reasons:  1) actions are the currency of games, messing with them can have unintended consequences* and 2) from a metagame PoV, multiple rolls just slow things down.

*Since you mentioned D&D, consider swift actions as an example.  Another would be the conversion from AD&D to 3.x.