Spray maneuvers possible?

[LokiTM]

Many folks on the forum have talked about putting aspects on a zone which they then free tag to invoke for effect (compel) everyone in the zone. This seems unbalancing in the case of an aspect like"disarmed". An alternative is to require a fate point for every person after the first (very expensive).

What do people think about the idea of spray attack maneuvers? Each successfully hit target would get the aspect and associated free tag / compel. Because it would be next to impossible to spray a large crowd, it keeps the level impact reasonable and proportionate.

So, is it possible / allowed?

I am thinking that an aspect like "the room is completely engulfed in flames" would typically get compelled by the GM without the player needing to sped points (at least if it is cool).

[Drachasor]

Many folks on the forum have talked about putting aspects on a zone which they then free tag to invoke for effect (compel) everyone in the zone. This seems unbalancing in the case of an aspect like"disarmed". An alternative is to require a fate point for every person after the first (very expensive).

What do people think about the idea of spray attack maneuvers? Each successfully hit target would get the aspect and associated free tag / compel. Because it would be next to impossible to spray a large crowd, it keeps the level impact reasonable and proportionate.

Given that you can somewhat easily have evocations that are 12-some in power, splitting that up into multiple maneuvers makes sense on a number of levels.  For one, that's a crap-ton of power if you are just doing a maneuver on one guy or the scene (and the excess power will just get sillier as refresh goes higher).  On the other hand, that could be used to place multiple maneuvers on allies, which MIGHT be broken.  9 power to make 3 invokable aspects at once might be too much...unless you put some limits on it for evocation -- on the other hand, evocations have crazy-short durations, even the maneuvers are really short (only lasting 1 exchange by default).

So, is it possible / allowed?

RAW doesn't allow it (Spray attacks are ATTACKS, spray maneuvers don't exist), but I think it is probably ok.  Largely they would just be useful on Mooks, I'd think.  Another alternative is allow mook-only mass compels or multi-target maneuvers.  Spray attacks seem like a better way to go, however...though I think it makes some things Harry does nearly impossible unless he just tosses a bunch of fate points sometimes -- that said, sometimes books have things in them that would be broken in a game.

I am thinking that an aspect like "the room is completely engulfed in flames" would typically get compelled by the GM without the player needing to sped points (at least if it is cool).

Hmm, it probably should.  I only get uncomfortable regarding this because the book really doesn't give any advice or guidelines on compelling NPCs spontaneously and it seems like it should.

[LokiTM]

So, how would you structure an effort to do a mass compel?

[Drachasor]

So, how would you structure an effort to do a mass compel?

Evocation to put a maneuver on the scene, tag for effect or have the GM compel everyone affected.  I think that's way too easy to do though, and hence broken.  That's why I think spray maneuvers are a better way to go.

[UmbraLux]

So, is it possible / allowed?

I'd say it is allowed.  YS326 says "any evocation".

That said, it's probably not optimal.  You'd be better off taking those 12 shifts and creating three (9 shifts) zone-wide (2 shifts) maneuvers which last for two exchanges (1 shift).  You'll avoid resisted maneuvers and you'll have the flexibility of using one or more against any target in the zone.  

I am curious about the 12 shifts though, can you get that many without using aspects?  I don't think it would pay to use up fate / tags just to get more.  Even if you manage a 1:1 ratio, you've lost a point of stress on the deal.

Mass compels are difficult for players to pull off simply because of the cost.  I'd try for talking the GM into compelling the zone for whichever aspect I thought reasonable. 

[Steppenwolf]

I'd say it is allowed.  YS326 says "any evocation".

That said, it's probably not optimal.  You'd be better off taking those 12 shifts and creating three (9 shifts) zone-wide (2 shifts) maneuvers which last for two exchanges (1 shift).

RAW, Maneuvers doesn't cost 2 shifts for a zone effect.
You simply target a character or the scene, just like regular maneuvers.
Even cause the Aspect you put on the scene is subject to everyone's invoke if it's possible.

[Drachasor]

I'd say it is allowed.  YS326 says "any evocation".

Eh, but you go to the spell section it tells you to and there are only rules for evocations.  Also, it's "spray attacks" and there's a big difference between an attack and other things you can do like move, maneuver, block, etc.

That said, it's probably not optimal.  You'd be better off taking those 12 shifts and creating three (9 shifts) zone-wide (2 shifts) maneuvers which last for two exchanges (1 shift).  You'll avoid resisted maneuvers and you'll have the flexibility of using one or more against any target in the zone.  

You're applying the rules for attacking or blocking to maneuvers which technically isn't allowed.  Might as well grab the thaumaturgy rules for maneuvers and use those with evocations while you are at it.  You can do a scene-wide maneuver for just 3 shifts though, that's covers multiple zones.  Or you could grab the maneuver rules for attacks and use a complexity 8 spell to do a weapon 8 attack on everything in the scene.

Not that I am against house rules, mind you.  Figuring out how to say disarm 5 mooks at once is definitely in the realm of house rules and I think it is worthwhile to be able to do it.  Spray Attack rules modified into Spray Maneuver rules seem like the best and most balanced way to do that.  I don't like the scene maneuver -> mass compel just because that's extremely cheap and easy to do -- it should be something that not any 2-bit channeler can do.

[UmbraLux]

RAW, Maneuvers doesn't cost 2 shifts for a zone effect.

Good point - which makes the spray maneuver (RAW or not) even less optimal.

[Drachasor]

Good point - which makes the spray maneuver (RAW or not) even less optimal.

Going with a scene maneuver requires a hideous amount of Fate Points or the GM basically giving you a bunch of tags for free.  Also, it can work on allies.  I think you spray rules and allowing each placed maneuver to be taggable makes it worthwhile for a powerful wizard/channeler/whatever, if difficult.

[Steppenwolf]

The real matter I can see is the fact we are going beyond the scope of Evocation.
Maneuvering is a matter of precision.

Evocation requires your character to create the spell construct with his mind and then concentrating on the targets. The he should also apply the aspect to each target.
This is the reason why thaumaturgy can handle multiple targets (via shift stacking ) even if it needs more time and material. 

[UmbraLux]

Spray Attack rules modified into Spray Maneuver rules seem like the best and most balanced way to do that.  I don't like the scene maneuver -> mass compel just because that's extremely cheap and easy to do -- it should be something that not any 2-bit channeler can do.

I agree, from balance & elegance points of view the spray method is probably better.  

I do think you and I have a 'glass half empty' vs 'glass half full' difference in approach to the rules in general.  Within the realm of reason, I use an 'anything not specifically denied is allowed' approach.  So spray maneuvers and zone wide "armor" make sense...though I do wish they'd used less jargon.  The terminology makes it more difficult than necessary.  

Going with a scene maneuver requires a hideous amount of Fate Points or the GM basically giving you a bunch of tags for free.  

Agreed.  Which is why I said "mass compels are difficult for players..."

[Drachasor]

The real matter I can see is the fact we are going beyond the scope of Evocation.
Maneuvering is a matter of precision.

Some maneuvers might require precision, sure, but they certainly all don't.  A sharp strike on the hand to get it to drop something isn't terribly elegant, and isn't much different from a strike to the face or the like.  It's even easier if you are using a magnetic field, of course.

There'd be the most obvious restrictions to using a spray maneuver.  You have to be applying the same aspect to each target for one, and you could only apply it once.  That still leaves Thaumaturgy with a huge leg up.  It does potentially make a wizard a great "buffer" of other people in the party if he applies an individual aspect to each person, but that's probably a really good thing since it lets them make attacks or the like more effectively -- moving the spotlight a bit away from the wizard in this manner is probably a good thing in most groups.

[bitterpill]

Give the example of say an area of effect flash bang manoeuvre (which could be a grenade rather than magic) it makes sense that all enemies in the area who do not make an endurance or alertness (to close eyes) check would be temporarily blinded this would disadvantage all of those who did not resist the effects. I think each of the opponents who failed there defence should have a free tag of blinded on them which could then be tagged for a bonus or to stop them dodging fire for a turn. I know this is not the way area aspects work in the system but it seems the most real to life way of doing them.     

[devonapple]

I am also conflicted about this, but here are my thoughts. A free-tag Invoke for Effect leading to a Compel may or may not net a single victim a Fate Point. But if you successfully petition the GM to allow you to Invoke for Effect on everyone in a Zone, all but one of those NPCs are guaranteed a Fate Point from the GM. I'm not certain this is enough of an offset, but it is a start.

[crusher_bob]

I'm also not entirely happy with area of effect maneuvers, but there didn't seem to be another way to accomplish certain things.

You might be able to implement certain things as zone wide blocks, but then, if you did your big flash of light as effectively a zone wide veil, the first guy to get his sight back would let everyone see; which is not an ideal solution either.

In the power scales that most people seem to play in, making it the power of the maneuver (rather than the control) that is resisted might help keep this tactic in check, since it makes the maneuver easier to resist for everyone that you are hitting with it.  Of course, you can still do maneuvers that attack weak skills so it's still not ideal.