Where does the system break down in terms of power level

[Drachasor]

Let's see, starting with a Guns skill of +5, throwing in couple of stunts for +1 to hit and +2 to damage on hit, give it a Weapon rating of 3 for a rifle, +2 for free tag of "In My Sights", lucky roll of +4 brings us to an Attack at 12, with effective Weapon:5... before any Fate Points are spent. If you have another Guns stunt that add 3 to damage for a Fate Point, we're up to Attack 12 and Weapon:8 for a single fate point, minus whatever the unfortunate target managed to defend with... Am I close?

Yeah, 20+ stress attacks from a mortal are quite plausible, far as I can tell. Or in the words of the Team Fortress 2 Sniper - "Boom. Headshot."

Well, a +4 on your roll is just a 1/81 chance, so that's hardly repeatable.  A more reasonable lucky roll would be +2 though even this isn't something that can be easily pulled off on any sort of consistent basis.  Going with an average roll of 0 (unless you want to wait exchange after exchange until you get a good roll), would make that an attack of 8 and require a maneuver to setup (so 2 exchanges to do).  The weapon rating would still be 8, of course.  That might result in 11 or so shifts of damage (depending on what the enemy does).  Getting to 20 on any sort of consistent basis would be tricky and cost either a ton of maneuvers/declarations/etc for free tags or a bunch of fate points.  Not impossible, but not easy by any stretch.

In any case, it's a lot easier for a supernatural creature to do this kind of damage.

[sinker]

Warpmind is pretty close. Mostly I took a turn or two to set up and then tagged/invoked a ton of aspects. It also helps to create a pure mortal with a lot of aspects that can be used regularly and in a number of situations. Things like "My family is "The Family"" which imply an entire skill set that it could be used for. I'm pretty sure on that hit I invoked three of my own aspects. I know some people prefer the whole only one personal aspect, one environmental aspect, etc bit but my group doesn't go in for that.

[Warpmind]

Well, a +4 on your roll is just a 1/81 chance, so that's hardly repeatable.  A more reasonable lucky roll would be +2 though even this isn't something that can be easily pulled off on any sort of consistent basis.  Going with an average roll of 0 (unless you want to wait exchange after exchange until you get a good roll), would make that an attack of 8 and require a maneuver to setup (so 2 exchanges to do).  The weapon rating would still be 8, of course.  That might result in 11 or so shifts of damage (depending on what the enemy does).  Getting to 20 on any sort of consistent basis would be tricky and cost either a ton of maneuvers/declarations/etc for free tags or a bunch of fate points.  Not impossible, but not easy by any stretch.

In any case, it's a lot easier for a supernatural creature to do this kind of damage.

Oh, absolutely, the +4 roll is statistically unlikely - I just tried to see if reaching a total of 20 shifts from Attack and Weapon Rating was plausible without the expenditure of half a ton (depending on Fate point token weight) or so of Fate Points... Which, it seems, it is.

When you then start adding Aspect tags that do cost Fate points into the equation, Mortals are likely to have more Fate points to consistently pour into their rolls than supernaturals...

[Drachasor]

Oh, absolutely, the +4 roll is statistically unlikely - I just tried to see if reaching a total of 20 shifts from Attack and Weapon Rating was plausible without the expenditure of half a ton (depending on Fate point token weight) or so of Fate Points... Which, it seems, it is.

When you then start adding Aspect tags that do cost Fate points into the equation, Mortals are likely to have more Fate points to consistently pour into their rolls than supernaturals...

Granted, but we're talking about maybe getting one such attack off extra really, unless they do a lot of prep (but prepping is nothing special, anyone can do it).  Let's say a mortal has 5 spare refresh compared to a supernatural's 1.  That's +8 on one attack per session more than what the supernatural gets.  Let's say we add 5 more refresh after a lot of time and the mortal just keeps it as fate points.  That's two such big attacks (which are unlikely to be 20 stress each).  A Supernatural by this point could grab +5 on all his magic attacks (wizard with a 5 focus, and he has 2 refresh left over), go from inhuman to mythic strength (+4 stress on all physical attacks), etc.  The supernaturals also get really nice defensive upgrades potentially.

Now, what a mortal does bring to the table is flexibility, to an extent.  That can invoke for effect very easily, which I think is probably one of the most powerful uses of fate points (+2 sounds nice, but invoke for effects can be crazy-good).  They can also use those fate points in social encounters, where it is harder to use magic or the like.  Still, I think in the long run, mortals lose out. 

(click to show/hide)

Kind of like in the books, Murphy manages to keep up with Dresden for quite a while, but it really looks like she'll have to start using the sword to work in the big leagues.

  Extra fate points are nice, but I think they generally are weaker than 1 refresh at higher levels -- and to be fair, a wizard could decide to stack up on fate points with extra refresh if he wanted, but it just isn't worth it.

I am not sure I'd say this is the system breaking down, per se, but it seems to me that pure mortals lose their luster at some point.  I don't think it is in any of the starting power levels though.  I'd guess by Refresh 20 it would have happened, but that's hard to say without playtesting a lot.  Wizards are more problematic though, given how foci and specializations work they can get real crazy compared to others.

[Warpmind]

Also, I should like to point out that one of the most dangerous individuals in the book, even if not the most powerful in a personal scuffle, is John Marcone... The only mortal signatory to the Unseelie Accords, with the skill and strength necessary to hold his own as a Freeholding Lord...
He's capable of handling himself in personal combat, and for the love of all that is Holy, do NOT engage him in social combat...

[Drachasor]

Also, I should like to point out that one of the most dangerous individuals in the book, even if not the most powerful in a personal scuffle, is John Marcone... The only mortal signatory to the Unseelie Accords, with the skill and strength necessary to hold his own as a Freeholding Lord...
He's capable of handling himself in personal combat, and for the love of all that is Holy, do NOT engage him in social combat...

He's not so bad just by himself though.  He's powerful because he has an organization.

[bitterpill]

Also, I should like to point out that one of the most dangerous individuals in the book, even if not the most powerful in a personal scuffle, is John Marcone... The only mortal signatory to the Unseelie Accords, with the skill and strength necessary to hold his own as a Freeholding Lord...
He's capable of handling himself in personal combat, and for the love of all that is Holy, do NOT engage him in social combat...

Titania is far more dangerous than Marcone in terms of personal power, persona and even in terms of social stuff because she is the leader of an entire nations of Fairies and a court of superhuman monsters, she has more magic than marcone could ever dream off, more minons than marcone could raise in a hundred years and more social hacks (presence at legendary at least, Full Incite Emotion Awe, Fear etc etc). Marcone is not that potent but he is potent locally and has powerful allies which is the only reason he has survived as a free holding lord.  

Then again that is comparing a Plot Device or God to a pure mortal man, Marcone is when it gets down to it human and very squishy if he is ever caught off guard without his superhuman allies against a Dresden Level Big bad he will die as easily as anyone else. 

[Warpmind]

Titania is far more dangerous than Marcone in terms of personal power, persona and even in terms of social stuff because she is the leader of an entire nations of Fairies and a court of superhuman monsters, she has more magic than marcone could ever dream off, more minons than marcone could raise in a hundred years and more social hacks (presence at legendary at least, Full Incite Emotion Awe, Fear etc etc). Marcone is not that potent but he is potent locally and has powerful allies which is the only reason he has survived as a free holding lord.  

And on the other hand, Marcone doesn't lose any power at all by going where uninvited...

[Drachasor]

And on the other hand, Marcone doesn't lose any power at all by going where uninvited...

Pretty sure Titania could walk into a 3000 year-old house owned by the same family for all that time, and still kick Marcone's ass with both hands tied behind her back.

Marcone has the traditional power of civilization, oddly enough.  He has strength in numbers and organization.  That's what gives him physical might.  Against real supernatural threats he's pretty shoddy by himself.  In a similar way, the President of the United States can't kick the ass of anyone else one on one.  That's just a bad way to measure someone's power....unless, perhaps, they are a PC.

[BumblingBear]

I think the Dresden Files is really made for people who are fans of the series, and folks without preconceived notions.


To someone who had been playing Scion, DF is going to seem underpowered.

To someone who is used to standard D&D type games, the DF are going to seem overpowered when a fairly low level wizard can level a building or take out a supernatural enemy in one evocation shot.

Honestly, I think that the DF power level is just about perfect and matches the books quite well.

I will say that if I were running a game and my players started approaching 20 refresh, I would make milestones happen far less often.

I think that is logical - the more powerful a character is, the less impact or real danger an adventure will have on him or her.

[bitterpill]

To someone who is used to standard D&D type games, the DF are going to seem overpowered when a fairly low level wizard can level a building or take out a supernatural enemy in one evocation shot.

I think D and D and Dresden are roughly the same level of power as long as you assume that the starting level is 10, A level 20 D&D Balor is on par with a Denarian, a level 30 D&D character is on par with the Earl King.  

[BumblingBear]

I think D and D and Dresden are roughly the same level of power as long as you assume that the starting level is 10, A level 20 D&D Balor is on par with a Denarians, a level 30 D&D character is on par with the Earl King. 

For the most part I agree with you (although I think the Earlking would be 40th level)

However, the difference between FATE games and other games is the inclusion of aspects and the ability to stack them.

Fate games reward players for being creative and responding to situations with aspect-play, or gearing up for battle beforehand with aspects.

There are buffs in other games, but nothing like aspects - where a player can double or triple the punch of an attack with the inclusion of fate points or stacked aspects.

[Ophidimancer]

Not to mention how narrative can completely trump mechanics in FATE with declarations, invokes, and compels.  It's what I love about FATE.

[sinker]

Ok, I remember a little better what I was referring to, so just to clarify. Pure mortal. Spent one action of prep, spent three fate points on the attack, and to be fair tagged a couple of things others had just set up (aspects and consequences). Result was in the high teens, I think 18.

I think one of the problems many people have is when they create a pure mortal they assume stunts=powers and it's not remotely close. If a pure mortal PC has only five refresh in a game with a supernatural PC then he has too many stunts. It's best to pick up a handful of stunts useful for the one or two things you're specializing in and then leave the rest for refresh. Then you can do supernatural damage (I.E. high teens-low twenties) several times in a session as opposed to maybe once. Plus the fate points can be used in almost every circumstance.

I think a lot of people discount the mortal, and it's just because they haven't seen a proper one in action. I'm not arguing that one can stand up to Titania, but they should be able to almost hold their own against a supe of relative refresh.

[Tedronai]

I think a lot of people discount the mortal, and it's just because they haven't seen a proper one in action. I'm not arguing that one can stand up to Titania, but they should be able to almost hold their own against a supe of relative refresh.

The MERLIN would have trouble trying simply to not be wiped off the face of existence in a full-on confrontation with one of the Queens.