Lord Raith: Lawbreaker?

[Bruce Coulson]

Absolutely.  In fact, it's quite possible that the rest of the White Court (although they would never admit this) was quite happy with the outcome.  Being one of the major powers on Earth means it's hardly in their interest to support actions that threaten to end all of existence as we (and they) know it.

[Drachasor]

Does Lord Raith qualify for Lawbreaker? We know he has killed with magic, and used Outsiders to do so. (For those who don't remember he was involved with the ritual spell that killed one of the pornographic models in Blood Rites, and we can't forget Harry's mom. And since the ritual was backed by an Outsider, it seems like a 7th Law violation as well)
White Court Vampires do have some kind of soul, as near as we can tell (Thomas and Lara have been soulgazed in front of us), so it seems logical it can be tainted by dark magic.

He has Lawbreaker 7 from his immunity to magic, I think.  Harry describes Raith's defenses as very mordite-like.  I have the distinct impression that White Court was discretely working for the Black Council due to Lore Raith being an ally and Harry screwed that all up.

[vultur]

WCVs certainly don't get Lawbreaker for their inherent mind-bending abilities (Incite Emotion/Emotional Vampire); it is never stated if a WCV with 'True Magic' abilities (Channeling/Ritual or Evocation/Thaumaturgy) gets them. I would tend to think not ... I think Vitto Malvora would have had it on his sheet if any WCV could.

[Drachasor]

WCVs certainly don't get Lawbreaker for their inherent mind-bending abilities (Incite Emotion/Emotional Vampire); it is never stated if a WCV with 'True Magic' abilities (Channeling/Ritual or Evocation/Thaumaturgy) gets them. I would tend to think not ... I think Vitto Malvora would have had it on his sheet if any WCV could.

One could consider that an oversight on his sheet.

[Kommisar]

Or that he, and maybe other vampires, don't actually have True Magic?  That they are really throwing around a form of sponsored magic from some outside source.  Of course, this completely depends on one's view/stance of the nature of sponsored magic and accruing lawbreaker status.  Which, for the record, I still hold that purely sponsored magic does not.

[sinker]

Looking at it strictly from a GM standpoint (since lord Raith is clearly in the negative refresh) does he have any abilities that would benefit from the lawbreaker power? Not really. So I'd leave it off.

[Richard_Chilton]

Looking at it from a theoretical standpoint, the metaphysical side of the Laws of Magic is the effects of black magic warping the human using it.  We can debate if it warps his mind, his soul, or his magic, but it warps the human using it.

Once a WCV has surrendered (or formed an alliance) with his demon, he's effectively no longer human.  He has a hybrid demon/human mind, soul, and magic.  Taking about the Laws of Magic and non-humans makes as much sense as comparing boat design to airplane design - there are some similarities (you have to take resist into account) but there are more differences (air resistance vs water resistance, lift vs buoyancy, etc).

If I'm right in this in, the Thomas could get the Law Breaker stunts the vast majority of his family can't.

Why do I think that the laws only apply to humans? Because fairies break them all the time.

Of course this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

Richard

[Katarn]

I'd go with Richard on this one.  Mab calls Thomas "mortal" (in respect to love), so it goes back to the man v. monster debate (the whole point of refresh)- Lawbreaker would bring him closer to monsterhood, and his refresh approaches that as well.

[Bruce Coulson]

Looking at it from the political standpoint, enforcement is impossible.

The White Council is the representative of, and responsible for, mortal spellcasters.  Under the Accords, the White Council has no authority whatsoever over the actions of members of other signatories (such as the White Court).  Attempting to enforce Council laws on a member of the White Court would be breach of the Accords.

[bobjob]

I'd go with Richard on this one.  Mab calls Thomas "mortal" (in respect to love), so it goes back to the man v. monster debate (the whole point of refresh)- Lawbreaker would bring him closer to monsterhood, and his refresh approaches that as well.

Mab said he's mortal enough to be the Winter Knight because he can love, and that was good enough for her. Who knows how that would imbalance things for the Winter/Summer War.

Here's an interesting question: Say, Marcone hires a mortal wizard who has no problem breaking the Laws of Magic. Would the White Council invite an act of War by trying to enforce their own laws on a Signatory of the Accords, or do you think that would fall to the Blackstaff to deal with?

[devonapple]

Here's an interesting question: Say, Marcone hires a mortal wizard who has no problem breaking the Laws of Magic. Would the White Council invite an act of War by trying to enforce their own laws on a Signatory of the Accords, or do you think that would fall to the Blackstaff to deal with?

I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.

But if Marcone's Mercenary Wizard was becoming a high-profile nuisance to the White Council, then Steps may need to be Taken.

[bobjob]

I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.

But if Marcone's Mercenary Wizard was becoming a high-profile nuisance to the White Council, then Steps may need to be Taken.

Man, that would be a fun scenario to play out.

[UmbraLux]

I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.

But if Marcone's Mercenary Wizard was becoming a high-profile nuisance to the White Council, then Steps may need to be Taken.

The White Council went to war against a much more powerful signatory with less reason.  They'll simply claim the rogue wizard is a member of the WC and subject to it whether he wishes to be or not.  Remember,

(click to show/hide)

Elaine is in hiding even with one of the fae court's protection.

[Bruce Coulson]

In the case of Marcone, the White Council might go ahead and take action, and then pay any penalty clauses the Accords require.  Marcone is a Freeholding Lord; his rights may have to be respected, but there's a limit to how much shenanigans any of the Major Powers will put up with.

Now, things might get interesting if aforementioned mortal spellcaster is linked to a Major Player.  Not only are the Accords in place, but the 'nation' is capable of serious retaliation.

An even more interesting question.  A Denarian who is also a spell caster breaks numerous laws while linked with their demon.  They have a change of heart and give up the coin.  Are they a Lawbreaker?

[Richard_Chilton]

I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.

If you are a mortal with magical power then you are under the jurisdiction of the White Council.

Let's Lea said "F U Mab! I'm working for Marcone now and there's not a thing you can do about it!" - do you think that:
A) Mab would say "curses, foiled by my own accords", or
B) Point out where it says page X, clause Y, that once you're part of a signatory (i.e. the Winter Court) that you can't just declare you're part of another one?

I could even see Mab insisting that Marcone pay Wergild for his role in things - since he is trespassing on her turf by luring away one of her hirelings...


But say that Marcone gets a wizard and keeps him under wraps (i.e. the White Court doesn't know about him) - then the Wardens wouldn't be knocking on his door but the Wizard would still have to take the Law Breaker Stunts.

Richard