Gun Stunts

[UmbraLux]

I have a couple minor issues with Gun Kata as written, but the power is the less important issue.  

[-1] *Gun Kata; may use Guns instead of Athletics for Defensive Tests against Physical Damage attacks (Fist, Weapon, Gun or Magic) but not Social or Mental attacks

The most significant problem is the 'story' result.  It simply doesn't make sense for Guns to become a viable defense in all situations.  I'd rephrase it as ...may use Guns for Defensive Tests when the weapon is a viable threat and the threat is enough to deter or hamper attacks.  Mechanically, it limits Guns as a defense to targeted attacks (not grenades or fireballs) and probably requires using a pistol against attackers in the same zone (rifles are much harder to point at someone close enough to shove the barrel aside).  Making it situational would also negate the minor nitpick I have with the stunt's power.

[-1] Two-Gun Mojo; can make a Second attack with an off-hand weapon as a Supplemental Action with the penalty applying to both attacks. An additional Supplemental move action can be taken but it will impose an additional -1 to all actions

This seems fine to me, perhaps even a bit underpowered.  I'd be tempted to allow it without the supplemental action penalty since you're paying for the ability with refresh.

[-1] Double Tap; May add half of the base Gun damage against one target on top of the regular damage

For ease, I'd probably give double taps a simple +1 to damage and three round bursts a +2.  Probably doesn't need to be said, but I'd also limit both to weapons capable of double taps / burst fire.

[-1] Extremely Skilled; +5 Skill Points

While this may be a bit much, I'm curious - what do people think the relative value is between refresh and skill points?

[Steppenwolf]

Hello, I'm a new user, even if I was lurking since some days ago.

Reading this topic, I can suggest another option for Gun Kata:

YCarbine Training: You are trained to use carbines in melee fighting, other than shooting.
Every time you have a rifle you can use the Gun Skill to defend against Fists or Weapons. In the very next action, if you want to use Guns, you can only act like you were using Weapons or Fists (i.e.  melee actions or throwing the rifle).

Sorry for the poor wording...
I hope it helps

[Seb Wiers]

Well, if all yer talking about is using a long-arm to block / parry with, I can see that as a defense against fists or melee, sure.  That's pretty much just the weapons skill, used with a (rather expensive) club.  But how does that protect against magic, any more than having melee and a sword would?

[admiralducksauce]

Well, if all yer talking about is using a long-arm to block / parry with, I can see that as a defense against fists or melee, sure.  That's pretty much just the weapons skill, used with a (rather expensive) club.  But how does that protect against magic, any more than having melee and a sword would?

You're reflexively shooting at the threat to suppress it, be it mage or gunman.  Without the stunt, you'd have to use Guns to set up a Block beforehand.

[Seb Wiers]

Sounds like it should take up your next action and establish a block then.  Damn effective, to be sure.

[BumblingBear]

Sounds like it should take up your next action and establish a block then.  Damn effective, to be sure.

I like this idea.

A free action defense with guns doesn't make any sense against magic or ranged weapons.

What would make sense is defending against melee attacks with guns, and establishing blocks against ranged attacks.

Equilibrium is a nifty movie, but guns and magic don't behave the same way.  Magic is targetted with your mind.. plus, thematically most high level evocation attacks seem to be beams that are swept across the target.  Even someone who could avoid bullets could not avoid that.

Either way, these gun stunts/powers are pretty cool and awfully powerful.  I'd think they would not be suitable for any but the most powerful characters OR a character whose nature is reflected in their high concept.

Think... Roland from the Dark Tower series by Steven King.  With the high concept, "Gunslinger of Avalon", I think it would be appropriate for him to have really powerful gun stunts.

Being able to defend with an attack skill is kind of a big deal because it frees the character up to take higher non combat skills.

[Ren]

Let's try these altered versions.


[-1] Two-Gun Mojo; can make a Second attack with an off-hand weapon as a Supplemental Action with the penalty applying to both attacks. An additional Supplemental move action can be taken but it will impose an additional -1 to all actions. If both attacks are at the same target only apply the supplemental action penalty to the off-hand weapon, though the additional penalty for moving still applies.

[note: I think the original version of this Stunt is just fine. It's -1 to-hit for each attack (-2 total really) with an extra penalty for moving in addition.]

[-1] Double Tap; May add +1 to the Base Weapon Value against a single target.

[-1] Gun Kata; You may use Guns instead of Athletics for Defensive Tests against Directed and Visible Physical Damage attacks (Fist, Weapon, Gun or Magic) but not Social or Mental attacks. If the attack can be seen coming, Gun Kata can be used to avoid it, but this will not allow you to avoid Are of Effect attacks of any form. Example; it can be used to dodge a bullet or dodge a lance of magic power, but not a grenade or fireball.

[bitterpill]

The thing about Gun Kata was it was a martial arts with guns as a form weapon so the stunt that allows Guns to dodge makes sense as long as it has the limits of athletics (you cannot dodge area of effect spells) as conceptually the dodges and the shooting are tied together as mutually benefitting actions.

I suppose a potentially broken version of gun kata would be that any guns rolls could be complimented by athletics and visa vesur which would be far stronger than the current version because it would allow benefits from speed powers to an attack roll.  

Also with supernatural speed powers can you dodge area of effect if you have a free action move remaining?

[AlexFallad]

While this may be a bit much, I'm curious - what do people think the relative value is between refresh and skill points?

Just an aside...my group is converting Shadowrun to Fate, and the Mortal Stunt level we put for exchanging refresh for skill points was actually only at the 1:1 level.  This mostly was used for mid-level cyberware that definitely was not reflected by powers.  In our SR to Fate, Wired Reflexes definitely called for Inhuman Speed, but Reaction Enhancers or Muscle enhancements just boosted a skill like Might or Athletics.

Anywho, we decided 1:1 was fair because the bonus to the skill "broke" the skill tree/pyramid. 

[bobjob]

Just an aside...my group is converting Shadowrun to Fate, and the Mortal Stunt level we put for exchanging refresh for skill points was actually only at the 1:1 level.  This mostly was used for mid-level cyberware that definitely was not reflected by powers.  In our SR to Fate, Wired Reflexes definitely called for Inhuman Speed, but Reaction Enhancers or Muscle enhancements just boosted a skill like Might or Athletics.

Anywho, we decided 1:1 was fair because the bonus to the skill "broke" the skill tree/pyramid

I kind of dig that reasoning. I'm going to have to play around with it a bit.

[AlexFallad]

I kind of dig that reasoning. I'm going to have to play around with it a bit.

To be fair, another part of our reasoning was we assumed our players would use this particular mechanic to their advantage and not when it only gave a so-so benefit.  For example, a 20 point skill guy with 1 +5, 1 +4, 1 +3, 2 +2's and 4 +1's would get a big benefit if he used the 1:1 option to boost Athletics from +5 to +6.  I mean damn, we all know how many skill points it takes to pyramid up to a skill at +6 when starting at 20 skill points. Crap+ton

On the other hand, if someone wanted to say muscle enhancements were boosting their Athletics from +2 to +3, it's probably to their advantage to just buy the +3 Athletics normally and say it's "flavor" that part of their skill is from cyberware.

[wyvern]

And, to be fair, a generic +1 to a skill under all circumstances is the realm of a Power, not a stunt.  Given the shadowrun standard fluff that having too much cyberware makes you less human, that seems not too unreasonable for the setting - but I wouldn't suggest allowing it without giving up the +2 pure mortal bonus.

[BumblingBear]

Let's try these altered versions.


[-1] Two-Gun Mojo; can make a Second attack with an off-hand weapon as a Supplemental Action with the penalty applying to both attacks. An additional Supplemental move action can be taken but it will impose an additional -1 to all actions. If both attacks are at the same target only apply the supplemental action penalty to the off-hand weapon, though the additional penalty for moving still applies.

I like this.  I thought the first version was ok too actually, but I don't think this one would really upset anyone.

[-1] Double Tap; May add +1 to the Base Weapon Value against a single target.

I like this a lot too.

[-1] Gun Kata; You may use Guns instead of Athletics for Defensive Tests against Directed and Visible Physical Damage attacks (Fist, Weapon, Gun or Magic) but not Social or Mental attacks. If the attack can be seen coming, Gun Kata can be used to avoid it, but this will not allow you to avoid Are of Effect attacks of any form. Example; it can be used to dodge a bullet or dodge a lance of magic power, but not a grenade or fireball.

This one still seems OP to me.  At the cost of 1 refresh, this character would basically not need athletics at all.  That would be like combining conviction and discipline into one skill for a wizard... for one refresh.

Guns are powerful and can attack 3+ zones away.  This makes it even more powerful.

Plus, some of the attacks in the book (magical) were as thick around as a bucket.  I really don't see a gun kata defending against that... or say... a shotgun blast.  It just doesn't make sense.

I personally would make it like:


-1 Gun Kata  When wielding one handed guns, add +2 to athletics for defensive checks vs. projectiles (including magic).

[My Dark Sunshine]

Okay. Playing Devil's Advocate here...

My main problem with the Two-gun Mojo stunt is that it makes a mockery of Spray attacks. Targeting two targets? Don't bother splitting your attack in half, simple subtract one from each result!

At lower-levels of the Gun skill rating, the differences aren't exactly high and are reasonable enough for the benefits of a Stunt.

A Fair (+2) Gunman attacking two targets, splits the net roll [keeping it basic] of 2 by 2, for a total of 1 against each target.
Using the Stunt, it'd still equal an average attack against each.

A Great (+4) Gunman does the same, for a total of 2 to each attack. Each target receives a Fair attack.
Using the Stunt, this becomes a Good attack. Now a difference creeps in between the two attacks.

For every two you increase the Gunman's skill, the gap opens up by another one. There will also be a noticeable different when applying manoeuvres etc, as they won't be split either (but I guess, would only apply to one target; unless fate points are spent). That is assuming they split the attack results evenly. Now. This in itself is not too-unbalanced. However the ability to attack a single target twice in one round simply seems over-powered, especially at only a -1 penalty.

Usually to make 2+ attacks, you have the actually split the result. Even the ability to make multiple attacks against one target using the Spray attack rules seems more balanced; and that is probably a better suggestion then my last one.

Perhaps limiting your current stunt to the same &/or adjacent zone would help. I can't see someone wielding two pistols being very accurate at a 3+ zones distance. Which would give it drawbacks, and a character focused on Sniping would be as balanced...

Just my thoughts. I'm not trying to discourage you from making new and inventive stunts, I just try to stay on the side of caution when it comes to balancing issues. In fact, I'd rather encourage such ideas, and the discussions about them.

[admiralducksauce]

-1 Gun Kata  When wielding one handed guns, add +2 to athletics for defensive checks vs. projectiles (including magic).

Heh, isn't that OP?  Let's say I'm making a gunfighter and let's say sure, it's a 7-refresh game (whatever that power level's fancy name is, I forget), and my Guns and Athletics are both 4.  Now for 1 refresh I can dodge at 6.