Sponcered Magic ideas.

[devonapple]

There isn't a consensus.  Same as for about a dozen other important questions for the Dresden Files system.  There are multiple valid points of view that you can choose from.

Got it! Just wanting to see if I can tie a neat little bow on this.

A question, then: Luminos, does your system take into account that Kemmlerian Necromancy, at 2 points, is already getting the 2-point discount for its user already having full Thaumaturgy and Evocation?

My thoughts on breaking down Sponsored Magic:

Sponsor Debt seems more and more to me like a net-0 effect.
Therefore, I'm inclined to turn to wyvern's idea that we count the Focus Item slots as the 1-2 Refresh which get removed if you already have Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

[Moriden]

Therefore, I'm inclined to turn to wyvern's idea that we count the Focus Item slots as the 1-2 Refresh which get removed if you already have Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

Can you change the mock up to reflect this so we can see if people still have objections? Im a fan of iteration until consensus.

[devonapple]

Can you change the mock up to reflect this so we can see if people still have objections? Im a fan of iteration until consensus.

Done and done. I have not updated the examples though.

[arete]

I will posted the 2 sponcered magics using this system later today.  Thanks for updating.

[bobjob]

In lieu of creating a new thread, if you cast Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, do you still take mental stress like you do with any other Evocation or does your sponsor take care of that? Seems to me that you would, because you're channeling that power through you and mixing it with your own.

The reason I ask is, a friend of mine who runs a local game mentioned one of his wizard players with sponsored magic cast something like a 26 shift spell thaumturgy spell as an evocation and it really just didn't sound kosher to me.

[Moriden]

In lieu of creating a new thread, if you cast Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, do you still take mental stress like you do with any other Evocation or does your sponsor take care of that? Seems to me that you would, because you're channeling that power through you and mixing it with your own.

The reason I ask is, a friend of mine who runs a local game mentioned one of his wizard players with sponsored magic cast something like a 26 shift spell thaumturgy spell as an evocation and it really just didn't sound kosher to me.

Honestly thats a really good question that im not entirely sure of, my gut feeling is that yes you should be able to cast low complexity thaum at evo with no stress because its the only way to simulate the stamina harry shows in the latter books.

That being said i have difficulty seeing how a character could cast a 26 complexity spell in one round. Now if he had arranged to have sufficient tags available to bring the complexity threshold to 26 and then cast the spell in combat rounds. thats not actually at evocation speeds and methods. Thats using thaumaturgical methods with evocation speeds which im not in any way sure is kosher.

For the sake of argument lets say it is though, he still has to roll his discipline and choose how much of that power he's channeling. Even with a 5 discipline and a +4 focus item [assuming it applies], hes only channeling 5 shifts a turn so thats ~6 rounds of actually casting the spell. though it does in fact not cost a stress box.

[Warpmind]

In lieu of creating a new thread, if you cast Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, do you still take mental stress like you do with any other Evocation or does your sponsor take care of that? Seems to me that you would, because you're channeling that power through you and mixing it with your own.

The reason I ask is, a friend of mine who runs a local game mentioned one of his wizard players with sponsored magic cast something like a 26 shift spell thaumturgy spell as an evocation and it really just didn't sound kosher to me.

Well, nowhere in the rules (that I've found) is it implied that you can use Sponsored Magic without stress. Channeling Thaumaturgy effects with Evocation's Methods and Speed is subject to the regular mechanical restrictions of Evocation, including stress. You can, however, exchange two levels of stress for one point of Debt to the Sponsor - not the same thing, and if that crazy player actually goes through with that 26-shift spell, he'd better be prepared for something outright nasty showing up and having its way with him. For any and all definitions of the phrase "having its way with him"...

[wyvern]

Well, let's see here.  26 shift thaumaturgy spell with the speed and methods of evocation...  Alrighty.

Let's assume the character is submerged, and built expressly for casting this one spell.  So, discipline 5, conviction 5, lore 4, endurance 3, let's say seelie magic, and an extra two refinements for more focus item slots.  Let's further assume that you can use two separate focus items in a single spell - one for power, one for control - this is of questionable legality, but let's run with it anyway.  So you're dual-wielding staves - one with +4 control for (say) offensive summer magic, and one with +4 power for same.
(There are some other builds that might work better, but this is the best one I found that follows one of the existing templates - changeling, to be precise - and is also free of Lawbreaker powers.)

Casting the spell, step one: call up power.  Since you're using the methods of evocation, you have to call up 26 shifts of power all at once.  Well, conviction 5, +4 from the focus, so one mental stress would buy you 9 shifts.  Four mental stress (checking off your highest stress box) is another three shifts; you're up to 12.  Need another 14.  Well, your minor, moderate, and severe consequence slots total up to 12, and you've got an extra minor mental consequence from conviction 5 - so there's your power.

Casting the spell, step two: control that power.  All of your consequences (except extreme) are checked off already (just from calling up power), so you can't afford backlash that goes above your stress track.  Assuming you're insanely lucky and roll a +4, you're looking at a base control of 13 (5 from discipline, 4 from our control staff, 4 from the roll).  You need to come up with another 13 from somewhere.  Well, let's start with backlash - you can take up to a four stress physical hit (thanks to your endurance of 3).  Down to 9 shifts left to control.  One point of sponsor debt and four fate points (not an unreasonable assumption given your refresh of 4), and there you go.  In fact, that's one point over, so you could get away with a mere three shifts of backlash.

And if you got unlucky and rolled a -4 control instead of +4, well, there's always that extreme consequence slot to soak up more backlash...
(Of course, a truly canny player would have supplemented the above with a few aspects via maneuvers or declarations, and would have a bit more wiggle room for not rolling perfectly.  But still, I think you get the point.)

So, conclusion: totally possible to cast a 26 shift thaumaturgy spell with the methods of evocation.  Of course, you'd better hope that's the end of the scene, since you've just burned all your consequence slots, fate points, and two high stress boxes; a random thug with a rusty spoon could take you out at this point...  (On the other hand, if you're an actual Wizard, as the original post proposed, you've got things rather worse - you may have a specialization bonus from evocation, but you're going to be missing the overpowered dual foci, and you'll have rather fewer spare fate points; still doable with some prep work, or maybe as a death curse...)

I'd also note that the character build used in this example, while at least mostly RAW legal, is not something I'd be likely to allow to exist in any game I was running.

[Kommisar]

Sponsored Magic does not eliminate the cost of Mental Stresses to use.  Not without accruing debt that is; and that is rather up to the GM each time.

[Warpmind]

Well, RAW (looking at page 279 of the PDF, under the crafting of Focus Items), the rules don't say you can't use multiple Focus Items for an evocation - they DO, however, specify that you can't get the SAME bonus from multiple Foci. Though if it were me, I'd probably use something else for the secondary Focus Item than another staff. (A "power suit" with fancy embroidery comes to mind, actually.)
Also, this mad wizard could probably get away with fewer Consequences and less Stress, due to the option of incurring higher debts to the Sponsor. Two Stress per Debt, remember?

But yeah, pull something like that off, and the character is likely shortly off to become an NPC or somewhat... less alive. One way or the other.

[Moriden]

But yeah, pull something like that off, and the character is likely shortly off to become an NPC or somewhat... less alive. One way or the other.

Hard to imagine a scene that wouldn't be ended by a spell like that. Assuming even a minimal amount of softening up, nothing short of immunity powers or one of the mildly ridiculous shielding spells that are generally agreed to be "broken", i don't think anything could survive a 26 stress attack.

[bobjob]

Agreed. Like I said, it wasn't my game. But when I heard about it, I just had to get a consensus on it because to me, you would still take the mental stress from casting it. I mean, I realize that Sponsored Magic used that way could be powerful, but it's still kind of clear about what it could do. Yeah, you could use it to do more than attack, block, maneuver, or counter-spell, but I couldn't see someone pulling off a high powered thaumaturgy ritual without some kind of consequences other than Sponsor Debt.

[Warpmind]

Sponsor debts are pretty harsh, though, if the GM decides to get a little nasty.

So, this Seelie-sponsored wizard is taking a stroll in the park, feeling smug after his excessively overpowered insta-spell, when Eldest Gruff taps him on the shoulder...
"Hello, human. You owe us some favors. We want Los Angeles, California reclaimed by forest and The Netherlands reclaimed by the ocean - like nature would have had it if not for those dikes they built. We're not entirely unreasonable; you have a month in which to accomplish this. Oh, and should you fail... well, there'll be consequences."

[Moriden]

"Hello, human. You owe us some favors. We want Los Angeles, California reclaimed by forest and The Netherlands reclaimed by the ocean - like nature would have had it if not for those dikes they built. We're not entirely unreasonable; you have a month in which to accomplish this. Oh, and should you fail... well, there'll be consequences."

I feel *compelled* to add that for some pcs thats not an unreasonable task, and would likely be finished with days to spare.

[Warpmind]

I feel *compelled* to add that for some pcs thats not an unreasonable task, and would likely be finished with days to spare.

This is true. However, bear in mind this is a Wizard. If he uses magic to accomplish this, there's a shortening experience in stock for him in the not-too-distant future, courtesy of our gray-cloaked friends with Big Shiny Swords.