Sponcered Magic ideas.

[Moriden]

Just a quick correction.  Hellfire  gives +1 power and complexity to any spell that is intended to inflict stress or conseqences.  It does not give control and the fluff text says "hellfire likes to inflict pain and harm, but isn't particularly concerned about being controlled". 

You are correct, hellfire likes to be problematic. id still rate it as the same value personally. though it should probably be corrected and have each of the two similar abilities listed.

[arete]

I agree with your accessments.  I am glad you made them it will help my group make up additional sponcered magic.

[luminos]

I still don't like those breakdowns, but its not my game so its not as important.  Remember though, the reason that you get a discount on sponsored magic if you have thaumaturgy or evocation is because the sponsored magic abilities overlap with the abilities of thaumaturgy and evocation.  If you build the benefits of the sponsored magic so that they don't overlap (instead of merely complementing), you shouldn't give the discount.

[Moriden]

I still don't like those breakdowns

can you give specific examples of ones you dont like and why?

If you build the benefits of the sponsored magic so that they don't overlap (instead of merely complementing), you shouldn't give the discount.

obviously some gm oversight is going to be necesary no  matter how many improper combinations we plan for. I personally thinks its a pretty cool idea to sit down right up precise exact wording and restrictions. it is however against the *feel* of the DFRPG so we should probably just polish what we've got and then see if the community likes it or not.

[luminos]

can you give specific examples of ones you dont like and why?

I can give you counterexamples of how I'd break down the points cost of the powers.  Perhaps that would be more helpful.

Seelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with summer-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along summers themes - 1 point
partial catch for unseelie fae - 1 point
Biomancy at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point

Notice that interpreted this way, the power rebate actually makes sense, rather than just giving away points for nothing.  Its also fairly in line with non-sponsored magic costs, although still a little more powerful.

Unseelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with winter-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along winters themes - 1 point
partial catch for seelie fae - 1 point
Entropomancy at speeds and methods of evocation - 1 point

Same story as above

Kemmlerian Necromancy:
Sponsor debt - freebie
+1 control/complexity in necromancy - 1 point
necromantic and! psychomantic effects at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
control bonuses from necromancy can be used in evocations - freebie!

The control bonuses for necromancy make this one much more powerful and easily abusable than the other sponsored magics.  My guess is that the developers put in in there because it makes sense to let the thaumaturgy bonuses be used with the 'speed and methods of evocation' powers that come with the ability, but it created a broken ability by accident.  OR, they gave this ability more power because it practically requires lawbreaker to use.  +1 control/complexity is equivalent to a point of refinement.  Necromantic and psychomantic effects at speed of evocation is a bit stronger than other sponsored magics, but oh well.

Hellfire:
Sponsor debt - freebie
fire element for channeling - 1 point
diabolism, entropomancy, and disruption for ritual - 1 point!
+1 power/complexity for all spells that try to inflict stress or consequences - 2 points

This one is pretty standard.  The multiple areas of thaumaturgy are pretty strong, but it makes sense when you think of those areas as being thematically linked to the power.  Along those lines, Entropomancy, for example, should not work with the power unless you use it with a hellfirish theme.  +1 power/complexity is like a point of refinement, but its broad enough that its well worth the two points it cost.  Maybe even a bit of a steal

[Moriden]

Seelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with summer-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along summers themes - 1 point
partial catch for unseelie fae - 1 point
Biomancy at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point

Notice that interpreted this way, the power rebate actually makes sense, rather than just giving away points for nothing.  Its also fairly in line with non-sponsored magic costs, although still a little more powerful.

Unseelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with winter-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along winters themes - 1 point
partial catch for seelie fae - 1 point
Entropomancy at speeds and methods of evocation - 1 point

Agreed, i apparently wasn't paying as much attention as i should have.

As far as i can tell your version of hellfire is identical to mine. For kemlerian we just flat disagree.

[devonapple]

Kemmlerian Necromancy:
Sponsor debt - freebie
+1 control/complexity in necromancy - 1 point
necromantic and! psychomantic effects at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
control bonuses from necromancy can be used in evocations - freebie!

The control bonuses for necromancy make this one much more powerful and easily abusable than the other sponsored magics.  My guess is that the developers put in in there because it makes sense to let the thaumaturgy bonuses be used with the 'speed and methods of evocation' powers that come with the ability, but it created a broken ability by accident.  OR, they gave this ability more power because it practically requires lawbreaker to use.  +1 control/complexity is equivalent to a point of refinement.  Necromantic and psychomantic effects at speed of evocation is a bit stronger than other sponsored magics, but oh well.

Kemmlerian Necromancy 4
*Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to more than one type of magic (i.e., hellfire applying to any damaging spell) [2]
*Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
*The ability to use a specific thaumaturgical school's complexity bonus on evocations that fit the theme [1]

Maybe a potential balancing factor is the prerequisite that the Kemmlerite "must have at least some specialization in necromancy."
Or that you're not really getting a theme so much as a boost to a specialization already taken.
Or that only villains are really going to be using it.

[arete]

I had my wizard take specialization in neuromancy before I will allow him to get the sponcered magic.

[wyvern]

Ok, I've watched this conversation for some time, and I think you're all missing something in your breakdowns of power costs.  Specifically, focus / enchanted item slots.  Let me break down a generic sponsored magic:

[-2]: the actual sponsored magic - spellcasting, sponsor debt, whatever bonuses it gives, etc.
[-1]: refinement, to cover the focus item slots normally granted by evocation.
[-1]: refinement, to cover the focus item slots normally granted by thaumaturgy.

You've got evocation and thaumaturgy already?  Well, that discounts your sponsored magic by two refresh - and, incidentally, removes the normal four focus item slots granted by sponsored magic.  What's the normal price tag on four focus item slots?  Two refresh.

[Moriden]

+1 control/complexity in necromancy - 1 point
vs
Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to more than one type of magic (i.e., hellfire applying to any damaging spell) [2]

Okay what im seeing here is a different expectation of how much your going to be able to use that +1.

necromantic and! psychomantic effects at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
vs
Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]

Equal assessment

control bonuses from necromancy can be used in evocations - freebie!
vs
*The ability to use a specific thaumaturgical school's complexity bonus on evocations that fit the theme [1]

This brings us back to the first case where you get the +1 to necromancy, its really not gonna come up that often right? Because you can apply your necromancy complexity bonus as your control bonus for any spell that incorporates some element of death, you can us your necromancy complexity score for *All* spells that you cast.

(click to show/hide)

If kumori can justify a healing spell im sure given some time we could justify nearly any spell.

The other thing is your model makes Kemlerian only cost 2 points. i know that seems to jive with the fact that kemlerian only costs two points, however that is only since you require having thaum and evocation to get it. Just like every other form of sponsored magic though you get a 2 point rebate for having those. meaning that your model would be free.

[Moriden]

You've got evocation and thaumaturgy already?  Well, that discounts your sponsored magic by two refresh - and, incidentally, removes the normal four focus item slots granted by sponsored magic.  What's the normal price tag on four focus item slots?  Two refresh.

Adding those costs in one form or another would certainly be doable, more math then i care for atm but doable. Heres why i don't think its necessary though. Every form of sponsored magic in the book gives as part of "standard benefits" there 0/2/4 focus item slots, so removing them from that base just needlessly complicates the chart.

Edit: the four "points" for the bonus's are not intended to map one to one for refresh. you pay your points for the sponsored magic package, you get all the standard benefits reductions and such. you then pick four points of options from the chart, if you want to make something stronger then normal ala soulfire then you start adding extra things on top of those four for one extra refresh each. In soulfires case it picked up the holy touch trapping from the faith power, which does in this case map out as a one refresh ability for one refresh.

[Moriden]

hrm.. well their don't seem to be any more objections to this as a system, so im looking for a new project, anyone have another part of the system that could use a mathematical breakdown?

[devonapple]

What is the final consensus on how to break down Sponsored Magic?

[BumblingBear]

I'd like to remind everyone that without anything close to RAW on this subject, most of the tail end of this thread can be summed up as speculation and theorycraft.

However, just for the record, I agree with luminos' assessment.  That method is how I balanced out my character's sponsored power.

I also think it's important to get the flavor and RP aspects of the patron down pat.  If I am GMing, as long as the cost is 4 or 5 for the sponsored magic and is not too OP, I'd allow it as long as it makes sense considering the sponsor.

[luminos]

What is the final consensus on how to break down Sponsored Magic?

There isn't a consensus.  Same as for about a dozen other important questions for the Dresden Files system.  There are multiple valid points of view that you can choose from.