Author Topic: Enchanted items - overpowered?  (Read 8473 times)

Offline Watson

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Enchanted items - overpowered?
« on: February 08, 2011, 09:21:31 AM »
In my current preparation for starting up the DFRPG I have looked a bit into a few aspects (!) of the game that I think that can be abused by the players. My recent finding is the enchanted items, when maximizing the rules. What about this one?

The player creates a Wizard, and sets Lore to +5 and chooses Crafting (Strength) as the specialization for Thaumaturgy (meaning that all items will have a default power level of 6, and that the maximum power level is 10 (or is it 12?)). He then chooses to have all four focus items to be replaced by eight enchanted item slots, and creates two items; one wand (offensive fire evocation, strength of 6) and one duster (defensive spirit block, strength of 6).

He then sacrifices two enchanted item slots to increase the strength of the wand to 8. Finally, he sacrificed the last four enchanted item slots to increase the strength of the duster to 10. Both items can only be used once (but he can take one mental stress to increase the number of uses by one for each point of stress).

This means that, for one point of mental stress, he can make an attack of strength 8 – without risking any backlash/fallout (if this were considered a Rote spell, just as a comparison, it would be equivalent of having an effective Conviction and Discipline of 8 ). In regards to the duster, he can for each attack choose to activate the defensive spells equal to a block of strength 10 – without risking any backlash/fallout (if this were considered a Rote spell, just as a comparison, it would be equivalent of having an effective Conviction and Discipline of 10!). A defensive block of 10 would avoid most attacks, and if they went through, he could use it as Armor 5 instead – for just 1 point of mental stress, without any roll!. In combat, why should he ever bother using “normal” magic?

Please let me know in case I have used the rules in an incorrect way, or if you don’t think this is overpowered.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 09:48:45 AM »
This subject has already been discussed quite a bit.

Yes, a submerged artificer can be walking around with 700... yes, 700 shifts of magic in items ready to go.

Yes, they can have 10+ shift effects.

However, without all that crap they wouldn't have a lot of power and in play they could be relegated to the magic item bitch.

Consider:  A character like that could easily lose their powers, or be arrested and all their stuff taken.  As far as I know they still can't kill mortals with that stuff....

Actually - can they?  Can a magic item be used to break the first law?  I'd never considered that...

Anyway, also consider that spells are usually aimed with discipline.  Sure, guns could be used for some items, but discipline is the go-to.

Chances are that an artificer won't be able to have a high discipline score due to all the doodads.

Plus, an artificer would be extra squishy.  It's not that hard for an NPC in a submerged level campaign to get above a 10 shift attack roll, breaking the artificer's shield unless he spends fate points as well.  Also consider that if an artificer does not keep a shield up at all times, he's pretty much dead.  Sure, he could activate it when attacked and then just prolong it on his turn... but not if the shield is overcome or he is not attacked.

Lastly, with a character like that I would get very specific with asking what the shield blocks.  Since the wizard still needs to breathe and usually won't have the back of the shield closed anyway, it would be relatively easy for him to be "taken out" with gas.

A smart enemy would not have a face to face fight with a character like that.  It would be a long shot or gas.

Since enchanted items can be used by others at 1 shift less power than they were created for, enemies might want to get their hands on an artificer's toys.

In an ambush, it would not be too hard for a sniper with a scope to hit a character with like a 15 stress attack with a 4 stress weapon from 3 zones away.  If he were hidden, he could just keep his position and take pot shots for several rounds while the PCs made alertness checks against the sniper's stealth.

Soooo... long post.  I guess my point is that things are only OP in the DFRPG if the PCs are more creative than the GMs.  The GM is not out to kill the players, but he or she can undoubtably still give them a challenge.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 10:03:28 AM »
Actually - can they?  Can a magic item be used to break the first law?  I'd never considered that...

Cheap answer is that you still have to really believe to make your items work...it just takes no energy.

Then reduce the power by one so anyone can pull a lever and the toy gun shoots out a fireball that engulfs a city block (Lore 6, +3 power, -2 for hitting a whole zone, -1 for anyone able to use it, so a Shift 5 attack...nasty).  Certainly it violates the LETTER of the Laws of Magic, but it is hard to see how that would have a different effect on one's soul than using bazooka or something.  For the sake of a reasonably consistent balance though, I think you just have to say "YES, IT STILL COUNTS!"

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 10:10:21 AM »
Cheap answer is that you still have to really believe to make your items work...it just takes no energy.

Then reduce the power by one so anyone can pull a lever and the toy gun shoots out a fireball that engulfs a city block (Lore 6, +3 power, -2 for hitting a whole zone, -1 for anyone able to use it, so a Shift 5 attack...nasty).  Certainly it violates the LETTER of the Laws of Magic, but it is hard to see how that would have a different effect on one's soul than using bazooka or something.  For the sake of a reasonably consistent balance though, I think you just have to say "YES, IT STILL COUNTS!"

I dunno... I think that some of the discussions on the board have too narrow of a focus because we pretty much just discuss what PCs can do... usually to make themselves more powerful.

Consider: bad guys can do what the PCs can do.

Consider: a campaign where a White Council card-holding wizard is making destructive devices like the one you mentioned and selling them to criminals since the damage type cannot be traced.

That would be one wacky, ethically murky story.

Not only that, as I said in another thread, character who had items like that would probably be looked at through envious eyes.  What if a character has a weapon like that and someone steals it?  Not only would they be without a weapon, but they'd have to deal with the guilt/consequences of the thief using it for evil.

What if a foreign government gets ahold of the "gun" and then keeps trying to kidnap the PC so he can explain how the "technology" works?

There area  million story ideas based on enchanted items. 
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 10:17:42 AM »
And they can be done if the item still corrupts the user if used to break a law, just like the Hexenwolf belts.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 10:28:18 AM »
And they can be done if the item still corrupts the user if used to break a law, just like the Hexenwolf belts.

As I understand it, the Hexenwolf belts didn't corrupt because of law violations - they were corrupting because they were created by a corrupting entity.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 10:55:58 AM »
As I understand it, the Hexenwolf belts didn't corrupt because of law violations - they were corrupting because they were created by a corrupting entity.

Oh yes, granted, I only meant that corrupting items can be given away, asked after, searched for, demanded, and so forth.

Offline Watson

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

BumblingBear - the sorcerer selling these "weapons" to criminals is indeed a great story idea, thanks!

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »
Please let me know in case I have used the rules in an incorrect way, or if you don’t think this is overpowered.

Enchanted items are possibly the strongest defense in the game, but they are only good (edit for clarity: good as opposed to awesome or supreme) on the offense.  Consider a character with supernatural strength can carry around a bag of bricks and throw them at people for an effective weapon: 6, and he can do this with basically anything he can pick up (and with supernatural strength, that a whole lot of stuff).

The real limit on attacks with enchanted items (as compared to other magical attacks) is that you can't increase your to hit roll.  Anyone who can produce a power 7 block or dodge can basically ignore any enchanted item attack since the best you can really expect is a superb discipline and +2 on the fudge dice.

People who rely on evocation blocks for defense have them as a rote, so don't have to worry about rolling them either.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 01:14:01 PM by crusher_bob »

Offline Drachasor

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 11:47:11 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

Remember, that you only really get ONE activation at 1 mental stress.  After that you still have to fill in a whole box, so it's 2, 3, 4, consequences...

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 12:22:39 PM »
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

BumblingBear - the sorcerer selling these "weapons" to criminals is indeed a great story idea, thanks!

No problem!  :)

Enchanted items are possibly the strongest defense in the game, but they are only good on the offense.  Consider a character with supernatural strength can carry around a bag of bricks and throw them at people for an effective weapon: 6, and he can do this with basically anything he can pick up (and with supernatural strength, that a whole lot of stuff).

The real limit on attacks with enchanted items (as compared to other magical attacks) is that you can't increase your to hit roll.  Anyone who can produce a power 7 block or dodge can basically ignore any enchanted item attack since the best you can really expect is a superb discipline and +2 on the fudge dice.

People who rely on evocation blocks for defense have them as a rote, so don't have to worry about rolling them either.

Agreed - and this is why I don't worry about it much.

Honestly, I think that an artificer would be best if used in an "armorer" role or a "tank" role.

They really cannot dish out the damage unless you count the scene.  10 shifts of power against something that cannot meet or exceed the attack roll would be nasty.

Speaking of which, a really easy way to muzzle an artificer would be to create scene aspects from those 10 shifts of power not hitting if the artificer misses his target.

On a similar vein, I was about to blast a target in a session I was in, but the GM told me that my allies an an NPC were pretty much in a straight line in front of and behind the creature I wanted to hit.  I had to make a maneuver to get a good line of sight.

My point is that 10 shifts of power isn't going to be stopped by one creature.  If the artificer PC does not keep tabs on what is behind whatever he is shooting at, he could end up killing himself.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 12:50:29 PM »
If you really want to screw with an artificer, goto a school for training dogs.  Get a pack of train attack dogs that all have the disarm stunt (and good or great fists) (and since they are pack animals also know how to maneuver the crap out of you before striking) and then point at the artificer.  Hide behind something for a few exchanges while all the blasting dies down, they walk out with your baseball bat and explain to the artificer why having all your power tied up in things that can be taken away is probably a bad idea.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 01:16:41 PM by crusher_bob »

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 01:24:49 PM »
If you really want to screw with an artificer, goto a school for training dogs.  Get a pack of train attack dogs that all have the disarm stunt (and good or great fists) (and since they are pack animals also know how to maneuver the crap out of you before striking) and then point at the artificer.  Hide behind something for a few exchanges while all the blasting dies down, they walk out with your baseball bat and explain to the artificer why having all your power tied up in things that can be taken away is probably a bad idea.

Then the artificer uses his 10 shift veil item and runs away.  lol

Like I said, I don't worry about them too much because they can make a lot of noise and collateral damage, but are not the fist of God.

They /do/ have oodles of survivability, though.

Honestly, I think a creature with mythic strength is far more powerful than an artificer.  An enormous sword (like weapon: 4) plus the ability to pick up cars and throw them as a weapon could really ruin anyone's day.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 02:12:21 PM »
Enchanted item specialists aren't bad for offence, they get the standard +5 to hit if they are maxed which is the same as mythic strength bunny. They also get about the same level of weapon as a strength bunny throwing a car would be getting a total weapon of 11 compared to the artificers 10. But the advantage for the Artificer os he can to wear enchanted glasses which six times a session give 3 taggable fragile aspects like 'super sight', 'the worlds slowed down' and 'ultimate aim' which can be used next turn to turn thier attack roll up to 11 (hahha take it up to eleven). So with a defense of 10 and attack of 11 at Weapons 10 they are the most broken thing in DFRP. Unless the GM decides they are too powerful and sets about punishing them for thier power ways to do this include sending High Sidhe after them or attacking them whilst they sleep or saying that having that many enchanted items requires you to be constantly in the lab. Also if they are being sensible and keeping reserve magic items at home or in secure locker boxes etc you can have them stolen by pretty much anyone who can either break wards or defeat security. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:36:15 PM by bitterpill »
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Offline infusco

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Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 03:37:01 PM »
Quick question. We were discussing reactive Evocation Blocks in another thread, and it's already stated in the book (YS280) that defensive enchanted items definitely are a reactive Block. But one question that sticks in my mind is this: I'd rule that you can't cast an Evocation Block if you're caught by surprise ... but would a defensive enchanted item be able to reactively Block an attack if caught unawares?

While it seems possibly overpowered, there are few instances in the novels where
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