Refinement, Specialization vs Focus Items

[BumblingBear]

I care a lot less about maximizing my stats and more about progressing my character in a way that is thematically appropriate.

Just my .02

[crusher_bob]

Well, I suppose you could 'cheat' like that.  Still, even at 10 point spent, going with Foci gives a slight edge if you only worry about two elements (one defense, one offense).

Of course, you'll hit a brick wall with Foci at +6 ones, since you need something unwieldy to go beyond +6.

You only ever want to concentrate on one element, not two.

Example, wizard guy:
superb: lore, discipline
great: conviction

So he can have up to +5 bonuses from foci or specs.

He spends his 7 points of specialization and gets +5 spirit power, +4 spirit control.

That gives him 9 base power and 9 base control (or he could have 10 control and 8 power, or whatever).

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Hmm, now to consider whether that can be bested by some combination of specialization and foci...

We have a base control of 5 and power of 4.
Our free point of specialization goes into power.

We spend out first point in specialization for +2 control.

So not he have a base control of 7 and a base power of 5.

Now, we have 6 points left to spend on foci, giving us 12 points of foci bonuses.

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1st, we try to match or exceed the specialization only guy:

We need +4 offensive and defensive power, and +2 offensive and defensive control to match the power 9, control 9 of the specialization guy.  So we can match him, but we need two staff sized foci, loose out on some minor bonuses (+3, +2, +1 to other elements), and have foci that can be taken away; all-in-all a horrible deal.

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Next, can we imbalance ourselves in offense or defense with foci?

We can make a +5 control and a +5 power foci (the limits of our lore) and end up with control 12, power 10 (or, with a few minor changes on our character sheet, control 11, power 11 if we want instead), and we still have 2 foci slots left, which should get us to control 7, power 7 in our neglected choice (offense or defense).

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So, foci are weaker than specializations, but do allow you to unbalance yourself toward offense or defense.   Since enchanted defensive items are usually a better defensive option than evocation blocks, an build that uses enchanted items for defense and foci to gain quick offensive power is probably the current best build.

Looks something like:

Superb: Lore, Discipline
Great: Conviction

(7 points of refresh to spend)

2 points spent for a +4 crafting strength foci (to bring base crafting strength up to it's maximum (lore x 2) of 10 (includes +1 from free specialization)

1 point spent in evocation specialization (control +2, power +1; base now control 7, power 5)

3 points spent on focus items (+5 offensive control, + 1 offensive power; single focus, staff sized)

and 1 point on enchanted item slots, giving you 2 power 10, 3 use items for defense.

So you have:
Offensive: control 12, power 6
Defenses: two layered power 10 defensive items, or power 5-7 evocation blocks if you don't have your items)

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Final comparisons:
Specialization guy: (no foci)
Offensive: control 9, power 9
Defensive: control 9, power 9

Focus guy (Offensive spec): (2 staff sized foci, 1 small foci)
Offensive: control 12, power 10
Defensive: control 7, power 7

Enchanted item guy: (1 staff sized foci, 2 ring sized enchanted items)
Offensive: control 12, power 6
Defensive: 2 power 10, 3 use defensive items

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Note that this neglects your 4 points of 'free' foci, so all of the builds are slightly more powerful than this.

[crusher_bob]

I care a lot less about maximizing my stats and more about progressing my character in a way that is thematically appropriate.

Just my .02

I care about characters not being that divergent in ability when they spend the same amount of metagame points (i.e. refresh) in trying to get to the same place by different roads.

Most disappointing is the 'all elements are the same' aspect of evocation, meaning that spreading your specializations over multiple evocation elements (barring those you need to build a higher pyramid) is always a bad idea.

I also dislike how it's very easy for wizards to stack foci and specialization bonuses to get massive to hit scores, making them hit anything trivially, and to a lesser extent, making high powered combat a game of rocket tag.

[BumblingBear]

Edit2:  Let's expand the tree I made above, we'll pretend you just do evocation Evocation...note max improvement is bound by a slowly rising curve (logarithmic, looks like)
+1  (0)
+2, +1 (1)
+2, +1, +1, +1 (2)
+3, +2, +1, +1 (3)
+3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (4)
+4, +3, +2, +1, +1 (5) (put 2 into one of the +2's)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (6)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1, +1 (8, must take a 4th element with a refinement, then specialize)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (9)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (10)
+4, +4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (11)

At this point, you could have a +5 control, +5 disc offense stuff, and +5 c/d defense stuff, and still have 2 foci left over.  So it does get the point where Foci are better if you are focused, just takes a while.  Specialization definitely gives you a broader base, however.

I thought in the RAW it stated that for a point of refinement you could get 1 new element only with no more points of power or control.

At (2) you have an extra element and another point of control.

[BumblingBear]

I care about characters not being that divergent in ability when they spend the same amount of metagame points (i.e. refresh) in trying to get to the same place by different roads.

Most disappointing is the 'all elements are the same' aspect of evocation, meaning that spreading your specializations over multiple evocation elements (barring those you need to build a higher pyramid) is always a bad idea.

I also dislike how it's very easy for wizards to stack foci and specialization bonuses to get massive to hit scores, making them hit anything trivially, and to a lesser extent, making high powered combat a game of rocket tag.

It makes sense to me.  You guide magic with your friggin mind.  It's not like shooting a gun where breathing, trigger pull, etc all factor into good aiming.

But this is why wizards also have to take stress to bring out the big guns.  Plus, a wizard can't hit anything if he doesn't know it's there.

A bad guy with a rifle and a high stealth could take pot shots at a wizard all day.

Sure, one could build a wizard to be great in a stand up fight - they're supposed to be.... but that is NOT the only kind of physical conflict possible in the game.  If aspects are being used properly, Mr. Badass evocator could be lied to over and over and over again, told by an NPC that a clue is available in a place where a sniper just happens to be set up in wait with about 6 aiming aspects that he could tag on his opening shot.

Side Jobs:

(click to show/hide)

Harry had his most powerful shield up outside his house, had his leather duster around him, AND probably had an aspect of "Evasive maneuver" but a sniper with a .50BMG rifle still almost killed him

[Drachasor]

I thought in the RAW it stated that for a point of refinement you could get 1 new element only with no more points of power or control.

At (2) you have an extra element and another point of control.

You start with 3 elements (I'm assuming you have Evocation), and you have both Control and Power options for all three elements.  Power and Control bonuses use the same pyramid.  You don't need access to another until you need a 7th spot.  Someone did point out you can save up Refresh and then you don't have to spread things out as much.

[BumblingBear]

You start with 3 elements (I'm assuming you have Evocation), and you have both Control and Power options for all three elements.  Power and Control bonuses use the same pyramid.  You don't need access to another until you need a 7th spot.  Someone did point out you can save up Refresh and then you don't have to spread things out as much.

I don't think I understand what you mean here.

By your diagram, what you are telling me is that you were saving a point of specialization to be used after buying another element with the refinement?

[Drachasor]

I don't think I understand what you mean here.

By your diagram, what you are telling me is that you were saving a point of specialization to be used after buying another element with the refinement?

Let's say you know Fire, Water, and Spirit, and have Evocation and two refinement in specialization.

Fire Control +2, Fire Power +1 with 1 refinement
Fire Control  +2, Fire Power +1, Spirit Control +1, Spirit Power +1 with 2 refinement.  You still have a whole 'nother element you haven't touched with specializations yet.

[crusher_bob]

I thought in the RAW it stated that for a point of refinement you could get 1 new element only with no more points of power or control.

At (2) you have an extra element and another point of control.

Buying an extra evocation element also gives you 1 specialization point.

So our wizard with 7 points of refresh in evocation specialization can look like:

Evocation (Spirit, Air, Water)
Specializations: (Spirit Control +5, Spirit Power +4, Air Control +3, Air Power +2, Water Control +1)

And if you have Lore 6 and 10 points of evocation specializations, you could have:

Evocation (Spirit, Air, Water)
Specializations: (Spirit Control +6, Spirit Power +5, Air Control +4, Air Power +3, Water Control +2, Water Power +1)

So you still don't need to learn another element.  (Until you need to build pyramid for your +7)

But this is why wizards also have to take stress to bring out the big guns.  Plus, a wizard can't hit anything if he doesn't know it's there.

A bad guy with a rifle and a high stealth could take pot shots at a wizard all day.

This line of argumentation is idiotic.  

1 It's like saying but a giant asteroid the size of Texas could impact the earth at any time and kill you!
Any other character with a similar amount of points can't avoid being squashed by falling Texas either.

2 Wizards with enchanted item defenses laugh at your feeble sniper based attacks.
Example:
Your sniper is using an anti-material rifle (weapon: 4), he has superb guns.  He has stacked up 3 aspects and rolls a total of +1 on his fudge dice, so you are looking at a 'control' 12, 'power' 4 attack.  Because you have been ambushed, your defense is reduce to zero.  This sounds pretty bad...

You activate one of your power 10 defensive items as a block.  The block is broken by the 12 result on the attack, but it reduces the amount of stress you would be taking to 6.  You then activate your second power 10 defensive item for 5 armor, and end up taking one stress.

Sure you could use an even bigger gun, but any other character build is a smear on the pavement already.  So this argument applies equally to everyone once you get a big enough gun.

[BumblingBear]

Let's say you know Fire, Water, and Spirit, and have Evocation and two refinement in specialization.

Fire Control +2, Fire Power +1 with 1 refinement
Fire Control  +2, Fire Power +1, Spirit Control +1, Spirit Power +1 with 2 refinement.  You still have a whole 'nother element you haven't touched with specializations yet.

Ok that makes sense.

Buying an extra evocation element also gives you 1 specialization point.

Where do you get that from?  I don't see it anywhere.

From what I understood, when you take evocation you get +1 to add to one element in either power or control.

For each refinement you invest in, you get either 1 new element or 2 points of specialization to power or control.

That's it.

[crusher_bob]

P 182, in Refinement:

Add a new element to your Evocation familiarity list. You also get one specialization for that new element.

Though a few characters in Our World who do this just put the point of specialization anywhere, so plenty of people just let you add your point of specialization anywhere you want instead of on the new element.

[BumblingBear]

P 182, in Refinement:
Though a few characters in Our World who do this just put the point of specialization anywhere, so plenty of people just let you add your point of specialization anywhere you want instead of on the new element.

Well I'll be damned.  Thanks for the info.

I swear I learn something new about this game every day on the forums here.