Refinement, Specialization vs Focus Items

[jybil178]

My main arguement is it seems for the most part, you can get a decent amount more out of Specialization than you can out of Focus Items... But I'll try to go in as much depth as I can to see what I'm talking about first...

First, a notable fact!
The writers/stat block wizards of Our World Complete, almost always put plenty of points in specialization, and normally only the initial Focus Items on nearly all the caster write ups in the entire book!

Specialization + Focus Items
disadvantages
1. restricted by refresh
2. capped by lore


Specialization

advantages
1. point for point, usually a more potent usage of your refresh, by x2! IE, it takes two Focus Item slots (ex, Staff, +1 Spirit Offensive Control, +1 Spirit Defensive Control) to equal a single point in specialization (ex, +1 Spirit Control = the above example)
2. the advantages given by specialization cannot be taken away by any means, bar the inability to cast magic in the first place

disadvantages
1. must follow the stair steping model, ie, overtime, in order to gain a more powerful bonus in your prefered casting method, you must first round yourself out in others, making later purchases a more expensive
2. per rules, once you choose a specialization, it cannot be changed. EXCEPTION, as with all rules in the game, would be ST approval


Focus Items

advantages
1. does NOT follow the stair step model, so you could have a focus item completly devoted to a single form of magic, unlike a specialization
2. a rather large amount of flexibility, both in how you may have weak and powerful items, or trade in a focus item for an enchanted item slot, but also
3. how at the end of a significant milestone, you can move around bonuses, realign enchanted items, or flat out change them to however you feel you want them

disadvantages
1. again, point for point, usually a LESS potent usage of your refresh, by half! IE, it takes two Focus Item slots (ex, Staff, +1 Spirit Offensive Control, +1 Spirit Defensive Control) to equal a single point of specialization (ex, +1 Spirit Control = the above example)
2. if your item is taken away from you, lost, forgotten at home, or Destoryed! then you miss out on the entirety of its advantage, despite the refresh you have devouted into it. Also, if the item is detroyed then
3. Destroyed! you must wait until a Significant Milestone in order to realigne, IE remake your Focus Item before you may use its bonus again.  That could mean that a great expenditure of Refresh is unusable for an entire story arc!

Now, while none of these advantages or disadvantages offer a trully perfect way of attempting to balance them out, and thus making any attempts to do so affected by ones own values and weights, I know full well these examples could get shot down, or flat out flamed to hell and back.  I understand this, and present that I do not offer the following as stated truth, but merely as an opinion while welcoming all others.  Also, if you can provide any other advantages vs disadvantages, I would be welcome to hear them
First, I'm going to attempt to equal things out as best I can.

Specializations
In reality, this "powerful" advantage of being unable to be removed is only strong when compared to the dissadvantage of the possible loss that a Focus Item can suffer.  It falls along the lines of the fact, that most powers or stunts really can't ever be taken away. But along those same lines, the disadvantage of being unable to change your chosen specializations is the same as any other power.
Overal, I think we've pretty much taken away all advantage 1, and disadvantage 1, by apparent process of self elimination.

Focus Items
The only attempting balance I can see here, is taking into account the massive amount of flexibility that a Focus Item or Enchanted Item can give.  But you also have to take into account, that all though there may be a good amount of flexibility, you can only take advantage of that at certain intervales, at least once every 3 or so game sessions, maybe?  Not only that, but flexibility also dosn't nessicarily lead to overal strength.. Taken that into account, the ability to actually LOSE access to your refresh, due to lose, forgeting it at home, having to leave it at the door, or flat out having it Destoryed! doesn't really seem to balance anything out.. Focus items in my mind at least, still come out a little behind, but this particular match may be decided differently according to another judge..
Overal, I think we've compared the closest balancing factors, but still come out with an uneven match..  But for arguments sake, I'll say that the overal flexibility manages to compare and eliminate the possibility of a great loss in power if your not careful.  This leave advantage 1, and dissadvantage 1 still in the running.

Specializations vs Focus Items
In all honesty, I believe that the Focus Items not following the Stair Stepping method was an attempt to keep them in the same power level as Specializations.
By that same token, I think the reason that Stair Stepping was inforced in Specializations, was to keep the power balanced in both the system, and closer to what a Focus Item can do.

By all the reasoning in my point of view, I still see the blaring issue of the initial reasoning of my post...  Why does it take two Focus Item slots to equal 1 Specialization?  It takes an entire refresh to equal the effort of half a refresh's work.  Why?

Maybe a possible House Rule idea would be to add 1 more Focus Item slot, totaling to 3 Focus Items?

Discussion now open

[bitterpill]

Focus items really benefit Focused Practitioners who at Submerged if they waste thier entire refresh on them can get +9 Discipline and +9 Control in thier element in both defence and offence.

[devonapple]

Focus items really benefit Focused Practitioners who at Submerged if they waste thier entire refresh on them can get +9 Discipline and +9 Control in thier element in both defence and offence.

I thought they were limited by their Lore skills? Or have you already factored that in?

[bitterpill]

I had a very long debate on this forum whether you could use two focuses for one spell, the group consensus was that you could. Thus using two focus item with a lore +4.  

[jybil178]

Btw, sorry for the big wall of text >.<  I knew how long it was, but I forgot to apologize for it none the less heh

[Drachasor]

Well, first 1 Refinement gives you TWO focus items or TWO Specialization bonuses.  Focus items may be stacked, specialization cannot.  So Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER.  However, they have the significant problem of being items, so they can be taken away.  So Specialization is safer, gives you something that can never be robbed or broken, but Focus Items are more powerful since they can be stacked for a bigger net bonus, whereas specializations must be pyramidal.

That said, if you plan on spending 2 foci slots on something, might as well toss a specialization in there for +1 control and +1 power if you plan on using it much.  If you plan on using two different elements a lot, then going +3, +3, +2, +1 makes a lot of sense (note the sum of the specializations will be odd assuming your initial specialization bonus is there from taking the starting skill).  Of course, the more you spread out, the weaker your individual ability is.  Compare the above to someone specialization in one element, going +2, +1, and having +3, +3 from Focus Items stacked on top of that +2, +1 for a net of +5,+4.

Of course, a Focus item is even more important if your Conviction is greater than your Discipline, as you need that control.  Generally, the bigger disparity between the two, the more focus items will benefit to even it out a bit.

[batmanjr]

It sounds to me like the approach is more from a "How can I game the system" approach, compared to a, "What makes the most sense from a story perspective".

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, that is just the impression I get.

With that said, why wouldn't a character have a combination of the two?  That way you hedge your character against destroyed/removed foci, and still get some enhanced power to your favorite applications of magic.

[jybil178]

Well, first 1 Refinement gives you TWO focus items or TWO Specialization bonuses.  Focus items may be stacked, specialization cannot.  So Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER.  However, they have the significant problem of being items, so they can be taken away.  So Specialization is safer, gives you something that can never be robbed or broken, but Focus Items are more powerful since they can be stacked for a bigger net bonus, whereas specializations must be pyramidal.

That said, if you plan on spending 2 foci slots on something, might as well toss a specialization in there for +1 control and +1 power if you plan on using it much.  If you plan on using two different elements a lot, then going +3, +3, +2, +1 makes a lot of sense (note the sum of the specializations will be odd assuming your initial specialization bonus is there from taking the starting skill).  Of course, the more you spread out, the weaker your individual ability is.  Compare the above to someone specialization in one element, going +2, +1, and having +3, +3 from Focus Items stacked on top of that +2, +1 for a net of +5,+4.

Of course, a Focus item is even more important if your Conviction is greater than your Discipline, as you need that control.  Generally, the bigger disparity between the two, the more focus items will benefit to even it out a bit.

... I think attempting to make an argument when you haven't read the particular thread at all is a very.. Silly thing to do.

Second, I do not understand your argument of Specializations can't stack, Focus Items can = Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER!  First and foremost, the box you are referring to on page 249 stats specifically that the only real instance that a Specialization can possibly be potentially stacked, is by some form of overlapping Thaumaturgy.  And if you attempted to follow the box, to the description of Focus Items, or at least read the description of Focus Items it to its end, you'd know this...

pg. 279,
You can’t benefit from the same type of bonus
(e.g., a control bonus) from two or more items
at the same time—so if you had two items, one
with a +2 control bonus and another with a +1
control bonus, the total effect is a +2 to control.

The ONLY stacking of effects in the magical field that occurs, is the stacking of proper Specializations and Focus Items, as stated on

pg. 249, the entirety of the aforementioned box
Using Specializations
Specializations, whether the free ones that come
with the spellcasting ability or the ones you get via
the Refinement power (page 182), are used to increase
the effective skill (Lore, Discipline, or Conviction)
during casting. Specializations can’t be stacked; if
you have two “overlapping” specializations (possible
with Thaumaturgy, at least) that boost the same skill
for the same purpose, choose the bigger bonus of
the two and use that. (If you want to stack another
bonus on top of this, you need a focus item, page 278.)

Another thing is your example of +3, +3, +2, +1 isn't possible.  It does not follow the pyramidal archetype that you mentioned earlier.  The best you could manage is a +3, +2, +2, +1, +1.  In order to have your example, you'd require to have an additional 2 elements, one at +2, the other at +1. (But as a note, this Pyramidal shape includes all of the specializations put into Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.  You could have a power bonus of +3, +3, but only if you also had some form of +2, +2, +1 +1 in control.)

And yes, you could just to put 1 Refresh into Specialization, then 2 into Focus items for your example, but the +5, +4 would ONLY be good for either offence or defense, which was the very START of my argument, and beginning this thread.  A Specialization either goes into Control of an Element, or the Power of an Element.  A Focus Item is further divided into Control Offensive, Control Defensive, Power Offensive, Control Offensive.  AND, in order to equal a Specialization in its complete, and rounded bonus of either to Control or Power, you need to double up on the respected Element.

In truth, this is why I believe most Wizards end up doubling up, at the very least, on Elements.  That way, they can let themselves fluidly expand their mastery over two, reliable elements, and normally use one offensively, and the other, defensively.

[jybil178]

But as another kind of note, is the fact that a Focus Item, when used to provide a bonus to Thaumaturgy, the Refresh doesn't lose any of its potency when compared to a Specialization.

Its only really lost when you get into Evocation

[bitterpill]

Im probably have misunderstood you the arguement of stacking was having a +4 control focus and and a +4 power focus which does not break the rule mentioned above.

To get a specialisation Bonus of +4 you need to spend 9 specialisation points, or 4 1/2 fate points this will also give you a +3 +2 +1, in comparison to get a +4 Power in Both offence and defense in a single element you need to spend 8 focus item slots or 4 fate points worth of refinement. Oh I see your point nearly the same and one gives you a +3,+2,+1 for half a fate point difference.   

[jybil178]

Im probably have misunderstood you the arguement of stacking was having a +4 control focus and and a +4 power focus which does not break the rule mentioned above.

To get a specialisation Bonus of +4 you need to spend 9 specialisation points, or 4 1/2 fate points this will also give you a +3 +2 +1, in comparison to get a +4 Power in Both offence and defense in a single element you need to spend 8 focus item slots or 4 fate points worth of refinement. Oh I see your point nearly the same and one gives you a +3,+2,+1 for half a fate point difference.   

Hehe, my arguement nor annoyence was not aimed at you, and I apologize if it seemed that way, heh.  It was more along the lines of the quoted individuals lack of knowledge on certain aspects of the threaded subject.

[Drachasor]

... I think attempting to make an argument when you haven't read the particular thread at all is a very.. Silly thing to do.

You misread my post, in part.

Second, I do not understand your argument of Specializations can't stack, Focus Items can = Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER!  First and foremost, the box you are referring to on page 249 stats specifically that the only real instance that a Specialization can possibly be potentially stacked, is by some form of overlapping Thaumaturgy.  And if you attempted to follow the box, to the description of Focus Items, or at least read the description of Focus Items it to its end, you'd know this...

I meant Focus Items SLOTS can stack.  2 Refresh can get you a +4 focus.  Best they can do with specializations is get you +2, +1, +1, +1.  So you can get a lot of power in an element or whatever via Focus Item slots.

Another thing is your example of +3, +3, +2, +1 isn't possible.  It does not follow the pyramidal archetype that you mentioned earlier.  The best you could manage is a +3, +2, +2, +1, +1.  In order to have your example, you'd require to have an additional 2 elements, one at +2, the other at +1. (But as a note, this Pyramidal shape includes all of the specializations put into Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.  You could have a power bonus of +3, +3, but only if you also had some form of +2, +2, +1 +1 in control.)

Yeah, I had it at +4, +3, +2, +1, but then realized it isn't possible to get that (sums to an even number), so I reduce the 4, which made it invalid.  Let's see, trying to specialize as narrowly as possible with refinement, you'd go...
+1  (0)
+2, +1 (1)
+2, +1, +1, +1 (2)
+3, +2, +1, +1 (3)
+3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (4)
+4, +3, +2, +1, +1 (5) (put 2 into one of the +2's)

Note that for the same number refresh, you get just as many points with Focus Items, but you can spend them however you wish.

Edit:  Hmm, if you have one element that's offensive and another defensive, that frees up 4 slots (+2, +1, +1) for the defensive element.  Saving you just 1 point while making it so that you need a focus.

HOWEVER

And yes, you could just to put 1 Refresh into Specialization, then 2 into Focus items for your example, but the +5, +4 would ONLY be good for either offence or defense, which was the very START of my argument, and beginning this thread.  A Specialization either goes into Control of an Element, or the Power of an Element.  A Focus Item is further divided into Control Offensive, Control Defensive, Power Offensive, Control Offensive.  AND, in order to equal a Specialization in its complete, and rounded bonus of either to Control or Power, you need to double up on the respected Element.

I somehow have missed this fact reading the rules, and so I didn't grok that part of your argument.  Wow, that DOES seem to suck as best I can determine.

Edit2:  Let's expand the tree I made above, we'll pretend you just do evocation Evocation...note max improvement is bound by a slowly rising curve (logarithmic, looks like)
+1  (0)
+2, +1 (1)
+2, +1, +1, +1 (2)
+3, +2, +1, +1 (3)
+3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (4)
+4, +3, +2, +1, +1 (5) (put 2 into one of the +2's)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (6)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1, +1 (8, must take a 4th element with a refinement, then specialize)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (9)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (10)
+4, +4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (11)

At this point, you could have a +5 control, +5 disc offense stuff, and +5 c/d defense stuff, and still have 2 foci left over.  So it does get the point where Foci are better if you are focused, just takes a while.  Specialization definitely gives you a broader base, however.

[crusher_bob]

You are better off, after your first specialization refinement, holding onto your refresh until you have 2 points to spend in further specialization requirements at the time.  That prevents you from having to play tower of Hanoi as much.  Though you can get to +4 without really having to juggle things that much.

1 point spent: +2, +1
(start saving up 2 points of refresh here)
3 points spent: +3, + 2, + 1, +1
5 points spent: +4, +3, +2, +1
7 points spent: +5, +4, +3, +2, +1
(you save up for 3 points of refresh this time)
10 points spent (if you have lore 6): +6, +5, +4, +3, +2, +1

And after that, you are forced to take more evocation elements.  But you are something like a 20+ refresh character at that point.

It's never worth it to try for even power and control bonuses (e.g. +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1) over odd bonuses (e.g. +4, +3, +2, +1) because getting your bonuses to come out even costs around twice as much.

Also, since 'all elements are equal' (except spirit seems a bit more equal than others), it's mostly pointless to up your specialization bonuses in other elements, except when you need to build up your pyramid.

[Drachasor]

You are better off, after your first specialization refinement, holding onto your refresh until you have 2 points to spend in further specialization requirements at the time.  That prevents you from having to play tower of Hanoi as much.  Though you can get to +4 without really having to juggle things that much.

1 point spent: +2, +1
(start saving up 2 points of refresh here)
3 points spent: +3, + 2, + 1, +1
5 points spent: +4, +3, +2, +1
7 points spent: +5, +4, +3, +2, +1
(you save up for 3 points of refresh this time)
10 points spent (if you have lore 6): +6, +5, +4, +3, +2, +1

And after that, you are forced to take more evocation elements.  But you are something like a 20+ refresh character at that point.

It's never worth it to try for even power and control bonuses (e.g. +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1) over odd bonuses (e.g. +4, +3, +2, +1) because getting your bonuses to come out even costs around twice as much.

Also, since 'all elements are equal' (except spirit seems a bit more equal than others), it's mostly pointless to up your specialization bonuses in other elements, except when you need to build up your pyramid.

Well, I suppose you could 'cheat' like that.  Still, even at 10 point spent, going with Foci gives a slight edge if you only worry about two elements (one defense, one offense).

Of course, you'll hit a brick wall with Foci at +6 ones, since you need something unwieldy to go beyond +6.

[jybil178]

First and foremost, I wanted to say I was probably more overtly critical and rude then necessary then I should have been, and wanted to apologize.  I attempt to keep as neutral an attitude as I can, its just after reading your post, it seemed like you were stating some things I had already went over in my own initial start of the thread.

I did misread your initial post.  When you mentioned Stacking, I recalled the box and rules I ended up quoting, going on about the yes's and no's of stacking magical bonuses.  What you called stacking, I called following the Stair Step model in my thread.

And actually, you'd end up having 4 foci left over after the Pyramidal setup.  In order to get towards the final numbers, you'd need to take your Fifth Element to keep everything going.  If I have it right, you'd put that in at as the 10th Refinement, rather than another Specialization.

The other thing though, is that regardless of how many Focus Item Slots you'd like to put into something, the maximum you could ever do is 6 Slots per item, maybe more if you can find something still wield-able thats bigger than a full sized Wizards staff, and the ST agrees with you.  Unless of course, I'm misreading the box on pg. 281, and the side-notes by Billy and Harry on the subject...

Edit.  Or, if your ST and your group are wanting to do it, just completely discard the aforementioned box.  But ignoring it does not remove the fact of its existance.  I merely wanted to cover all the possibilities based on standard practices.