Author Topic: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?  (Read 5186 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2011, 09:09:33 PM »
I repeat: humanity will not work together against supernatural forces. Some nations will respond aggressively, some will be crippled by indecision, some will decide not to pick such a stupid fight. Every single country will be divided by the question of how to respond to the revelation.

In other words, the basic premise of this thread is not possible.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 09:14:58 PM »
There would be a collective response the UN would make mandates, NATO would build a Supernatural Branch, The US would set precedence it would not be totally united and it would not be a 'war' as such but the status quo would be changed and the results would be either the superantural world  would change to accommadate the informed humanity or Humanity would adapt to the supernatural world, but there would be at least some sort of war of position  (this could be a cold war or police action) and one side would likly come out on top.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 09:19:00 PM by bitterpill »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 09:23:29 PM »
They might do better than the rest, but mortals would certainly not do well.

They're just so damn easy to kill. Even the ones who run countries and businesses wouldn't stand a chance if a wizard/a high-ranking vampire/a Denarian/a Sidhe/a dragon decided to kill them.

Now, what do you think happens to society when assassinating someone and getting away with it is the work of an afternoon?

It collapses.

Offline bitterpill

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 09:32:58 PM »
Humans are very replaceable, Queens, Dragons and High Council Wizards not so replacable.
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Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 09:33:53 PM »
If governments found out about a parallel, competing government operating on their national soil; they would HAVE to respond.

Not that they would want to; they would have to.  Allowing a independent group to act as a government (up to and including signing treaties with foreign powers) within your boundaries and not attempting to get control is tantamount to suicide.  It sets (for western countries) nightmarish legal precedents.  Bluntly, you can't have people with that level of power operating in your country, unless you control them in some way.  It's not happening.

Yes, some governments would try to co-opt the supernatural factions.  But the factions wouldn't accept this, because the mortal government would insist on being the one ultimately in charge.  In the case of the true supernaturals, you don't let your food dictate to you how you're going to eat.

Sowing every known site where access to the Never-Never with cold iron, silver, and 'holy stuff' would be the first attempt.  And making it a death penalty offense to summon such creatures would be the second.

The White Council would either have to break its own 1st law, or become subservient to a hundred different governments.

And there's a LOT of cold iron around.  Imagine a warlock trading access to the Never-Never in return for protection from the White Council...

And there has to be a reason why the supernaturals haven't toppled modern society, if they're capable of it.
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline Drachasor

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 09:35:22 PM »
Humans are very replaceable, Queens, Dragons and High Council Wizards not so replacable.

Indeed, even if each one of those took out 10,000 people with them, normal humans would still come out on top VERY easily.

Beyond that, I have trouble believing that the White Council would not side with humanity.  They ARE human, after all.  That makes things a lot easier for humankind in general.

Given politics, they might work to become a branch of the U.N. or or some other multinational group, but I don't see them siding against humanity.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 09:37:03 PM by Drachasor »

Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2011, 09:40:32 PM »
There would be a collective response the UN would make mandates, NATO would build a Supernatural Branch, The US would set precedence it would not be totally united and it would not be a 'war' as such but the status quo would be changed and the results would be either the superantural world  would change to accommadate the informed humanity or Humanity would adapt to the supernatural world, but there would be at least some sort of war of position  (this could be a cold war or police action) and one side would likly come out on top.

The UN is really more like a vast collection of cousin agencies under one big roof than it is a monolithic, unified force.  As for the member nations, you just can't get them all pointed in the same direction, and if you did, they'd all be pursuing different goals.  Those member nations then steer and departments or committes they control in their desired direction, then see above:  Cats.   ;)

The UN as an agency can't be relied upon to reliably work with itself, nor it's internal divisions and departments nor member nations to toe any line or provide assistance, resources, or support they don't choose to.  It's not at all unusual to see different organizations and departments in the UN working at cross purposes.  Think a centipede on LSD trying to line dance with a swarm of gnats.

About the only difference between getting the UN as an agency to take comprehensive, unified action, and getting a herd of cats to do the same is that at least unlike the cats some of the diplomats will pretend to pay attention to you while planning their own course of action based on the needs and desires of their parent nation. 


Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2011, 09:54:07 PM »
Oh yes, people are very replacable (as long as you don't know them personally). That's why there would still be a human race after things settled down. But in the meantime, consider this: 9/11 reshaped the world. A powerful supernatural (Faerie Queen, Senior Council wizard) could top 9/11 every single day. Just imagine the climate of fear and paranoia that would result.

But supernaturals (with a few exceptions) don't want to topple society and therefore don't. But they could be pushed to do so. Which is why the whole thing can't possibly end well for humanity.

Of course, nobody says that things have to be that bad. Governments might not like the existence of the White Council, but given the consequences to picking a fight some of them might be able to stomach it.

Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2011, 09:56:27 PM »
"We'll all be happier if nobody don't push nobody into no corner."   ;D

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2011, 10:33:46 PM »
"Of course, nobody says that things have to be that bad. Governments might not like the existence of the White Council, but given the consequences to picking a fight some of them might be able to stomach it."

Umm, no, they couldn't.  In any situation of authority, someone has to be the final authority.  If the White Council would allow governments to dictate to it how it would pursue cases of Law-Breaking....maybe.  But I can't see the White Council, or wizards in general, allowing mundanes to tell them how to handle their affairs.

Consider the alternative.  A government recognizes the White Council as the final authority on talents.  Then a sport association asks to be considered the final authority on athletics.  Then a militia group asks to be considered an independent, self-governing dominion.

Yes, it's ridiculous on one level.  But the precedent (the government has acknowledged that someone else can enforce THEIR laws on the goverment's national soil) has been set.  So the White Council, in order to legally operate, would have to comply with government regulations concerning law enforcement personnel and procedures.  Eventually, the government would insist on the right to approve (or disapprove) someone as a Warden.  And actual trials.  And executing a warlock who happened to be politically connected?  Not happening.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2011, 03:44:42 AM »
@Bruce Coulson: I think that the governments of the world would treat the various supernatural nations the way they do extremely powerful organized crime groups. At a certain point, the politicians get scared and let the mob operate as long as it isn't too blatant.

Look at the way Marcone operates in the books. He's making and enforcing his own laws, and he gets away with it because he's powerful and well-connected. Actually, the White Council is very similar to Marcone's mob in that it keeps the really nasty types down by enforcing its own laws. And in that everyone in their field is terrified of them.

@Paynesgrey: exactly.

Offline deathwombat

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 04:52:30 AM »
There would be no winner. Just survivors.
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 04:52:58 AM »
@Bruce Coulson: I think that the governments of the world would treat the various supernatural nations the way they do extremely powerful organized crime groups. At a certain point, the politicians get scared and let the mob operate as long as it isn't too blatant.

Look at the way Marcone operates in the books. He's making and enforcing his own laws, and he gets away with it because he's powerful and well-connected. Actually, the White Council is very similar to Marcone's mob in that it keeps the really nasty types down by enforcing its own laws. And in that everyone in their field is terrified of them.

And the FBI is after Marcone, he's just hard to nail.  If Marcone was not a citizen and didn't live in the U.S. then some of the kids' gloves would come off.  We (the US) get intel on terrorist camps and we just bomb them.  Heck, we've even done that to other countries easily enough.  If a supernatural groups started messing around, we'd get the capability to stop it and then we'd implement it.  Maybe we'd play along until that happened, but once it did we'd make it clear they had to back the hell off.

Here's what happens if the Supernatural Community becomes known in the US in the Dresdenverse.  The government will offer to employ good, american wizards and others to help them figure out how to handle the Supernatural, and they'd probably pay top dollar given the limited number of people.  I think most American Wizards would find that pretty appealing.  They'd get scientists to start studying the nevernever, hexing, and other things and figure out how they'd work.  I think a few thousand scientists working hard at the problem would find at more than a few hundred wizards who tend to keep a lot of secrets from each other.  Technologies would be developed to detect and deal with supernatural entities.  Ones that could be dealt with reasonably, like the Fae (who honor contracts), most wizards, many old gods, the Knights of the Cross, and so forth would be dealt with fairly (there might be some problems here at first).  Ones that harmed American Citizens and that was inherently part of their nature would be first detained, probably some study, and eventually they'd probably just be killed or jailed wherever they were found.  Likely for some of them, like WCV, researching cures would be looked for.  Others, like Red Courts, would probably just be killed as they are demons that have killed American citizens.  People like Dresden or Michael would get entire tactical teams under them to help track down and eliminate threats.

If the White Council fought that sort of thing, fought people defending themselves, then they'd fall apart...the only way they could survive, which is their top priority, would be to cooperate with governments.  They might not be calling all the shots anymore, but they could probably work it so that they had a good bit of clout, AND potential wizards and other talents could be found by a lot more people and sent to them for guidance and training.

Would there be problems?  Would there be cities destroyed?  Innocents killed by governments?  Sure, but overall it would be a positive thing for humanity and mortal practitioners.  It would be a negative for the White Council (less power, even if they have more wizards in the world), and a negative thing for other supernatural organizations and groups.  That and perhaps fear of the initial (first couple of decades or so) death toll are the likely reasons they haven't revealed themselves -- well, and fear the inquisition, but seriously, that's NOT going to happen in a modern world with things like Harry Potter and so forth so popular.  You'd have a few nuts, but no government movements there...especially when magic would be so useful.

Well, of course the real reason this isn't done in the books and hasn't been done is that the conceit of the story is that it is just like our real world with the supernatural hiding.  You have things out in the open and that's not the case anymore, and so the story loses that part of its charm.  Of course, humans would behave more believably (we're curious creatures, not people that collectively put on blinders to stuff happening all over the place), so there'd be a positive to that.  In a sense, Harry Potter is the more believable universe since they can magic people to not believe things..whereas that's not allowed in the Dresdenverse -- in the DV this is done so we can have people like Murphy and Marcone though, so it's not all bad from a story perspective.

Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2011, 05:26:39 AM »
Different nation states with different agendas would eventually end up bringing members of the White Council into direct conflict with each other, fragmenting it.  I'm sure there have always been conflicts between Council members who are from warring peoples, but dragging wizards more deeply into mortal international politics would surely make things worse.  The nations will demand the wizards first loyalty be to them, not the Council, not the genetic subset of wizards. 

Then we'll see nations putting their political interests ahead of the Laws of Magic.  "Go snuff the dictator of Durpdurpia, Wizard Dresden!" or "get in my rival's head and make him support me, or at least do something horrible so he loses support" and "interrogate this dissident/spy/threat to national security, get in his head and tell us everything he knows..."  Political leaders are going to want to use the power having their own wizards would offer them.  I'm sure that there have been various rogue wizards pulling this type of stuff throughout history, L'l Kemmlers and the like... but increasing the scale would be like issuing the KGB, CIA, Mossad, Revolutionary Guard, and NSA their own supply of super stealth walking weapons of mass destruction.  Increasing the scale of the Wizarding Cold War from the odd rogue and low level practitioners to something normalized and larger scale with wizards of Harry's caliber would like having a bottle rocket fight in an oil refinery.

Also, as nations had their individual conflict with other supernatural factions and races, that would pretty much blow the Accords out of the water.  Say Mongolistanitopia gets fed right the hell up with Summer, demands it's wizards retaliate for some slight or threat, real or imagined, or otherwise violate Summer's territory to shortcut through to attack some other party.  The wizard's dual citizenship would drag the White Council into the war, and all sorts of extra bonus hell would break loose. 


Offline Drachasor

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Re: If Humanity found out about the supernatural world would it 'win'?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2011, 07:11:34 AM »
Different nation states with different agendas would eventually end up bringing members of the White Council into direct conflict with each other, fragmenting it.  I'm sure there have always been conflicts between Council members who are from warring peoples, but dragging wizards more deeply into mortal international politics would surely make things worse.  The nations will demand the wizards first loyalty be to them, not the Council, not the genetic subset of wizards.  

Sure, that would be inevitable.  That's why organizations like the White Council would suffer in terms of power.  They wouldn't be powerless though, as international organizations DO exist.  That would not make the world a worse place to live, however, far from it.

Then we'll see nations putting their political interests ahead of the Laws of Magic.  "Go snuff the dictator of Durpdurpia, Wizard Dresden!" or "get in my rival's head and make him support me, or at least do something horrible so he loses support" and "interrogate this dissident/spy/threat to national security, get in his head and tell us everything he knows..."  Political leaders are going to want to use the power having their own wizards would offer them.  I'm sure that there have been various rogue wizards pulling this type of stuff throughout history, L'l Kemmlers and the like... but increasing the scale would be like issuing the KGB, CIA, Mossad, Revolutionary Guard, and NSA their own supply of super stealth walking weapons of mass destruction.  Increasing the scale of the Wizarding Cold War from the odd rogue and low level practitioners to something normalized and larger scale with wizards of Harry's caliber would like having a bottle rocket fight in an oil refinery.

And even organizations like the CIA would sooner or later, if not sooner, realize that such things heavily damage the person doing them, making them a threat to everyone.  They'd realize the laws of magic exist for a reason, and it is best not to have agents break them.  I am not saying there would not be problems here and there (but less than you seem to think, as all the experience wizards would be against such breaks and various leaders would have people protecting them).

As for the damage that can be inflicted, generally we are quite capable of doing that on our own.  Wizards have nothing on our conventional warfare, even dropping a satellite is not THAT impressive.  Wizards are ridiculously easy to detect, just have some new, mildly sensitive electronic equipment around and when it stops working, you know a wizard is about even if they are in a veil.  From there you can flood halls with gas, gunfire, or whatever, and use your own wizard defenses.  Intelligence work, in general, would not change THAT much, and since wizards leave magical fingerprints on things when they use magic, you could potentially trace who did what.

And it isn't like we haven't decided certain things are NOT ALLOWED.  The Geneva Conventions spell out a lot of stuff that are against international law (like nerve gas).  You'd get something similar for the Laws of Magic, and using such things would be considered a crime against humanity.  Not saying it would happen immediately (like I said, might take a couple decades or so to start to get a level of balance and understanding among mortals, maybe 50 years, not sure), but they would happen and overall humanity would be better for it.  In the Dresdenverse, remember, something like 1% of the population of first world countries is EATEN every year by supernatural forces...that's a huge number of deaths that could be stopped if mortal authorities were aware of what is going on.

We can sneak nukes and high-powered explosives all over the place.  We can assassinate people already.  We can apply pressure to leaders that CAN'T be detected nor often stopped by wizards (bribes and otherwise work fine).  Further, wizards aren't that much tougher than a person.  The main thing that makes wizards impressive in the Dresdenverse against mortals is the fact mortals don't know they exist.  Remove that and they can be planned for and neutralized (as Marcone has prepared in Even Hand for an eventual confrontation with Harry).

Also, as nations had their individual conflict with other supernatural factions and races, that would pretty much blow the Accords out of the water.  Say Mongolistanitopia gets fed right the hell up with Summer, demands it's wizards retaliate for some slight or threat, real or imagined, or otherwise violate Summer's territory to shortcut through to attack some other party.  The wizard's dual citizenship would drag the White Council into the war, and all sorts of extra bonus hell would break loose.  

Obviously the Accords would get blown out of the water.  The whole balance of power would change, IN FAVOR OF HUMANITY, I might add.  If the accords continued to exist in some fashion, each country would be its own member (so country X's wizards would be the responsibility of country X).  That said, it is pretty likely humanity in general would sign up on the Accords since many members EAT PEOPLE.  The Accords aren't great for us.  What you'd probably have are individual treaties and such with various countries, where Winter and Summer were both treated as their own country.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 07:14:32 AM by Drachasor »