What Can My Character Trade To the Winter Crone For An Unmaking?

[Drachasor]

To undo the spell your going to need something akin to the power that created it is the theory the only way to get that much power is either through leveraging the lives of other (either through lust or human sacrafices), leveraging the power of a sponsor (the white god etc) or spending years on the enchantment. Im not going to argue about complexity cost beyond the fact that the only ritual bigger than it I could think of is a Dark Hallow which involved the sacrafising of hundreds of souls. Unless your willing to become the eternal pawn of a sponsor or break the laws of magic then I see no way for a single wizard to disenchant that level of spell in the timeframe of a normal game.  

The Complexity cost is in the ballpark of 50 (for such a curse lasting for many generations).  It's quite doable with proper setup and time.  Given research time for this sort of thing is at best arbitrary, there's no way you can say someone can't do this in a normal game.  Even if a god-like entity did the curse, that doesn't mean they put tons of unnecessary power into it.

[bitterpill]

The curse would be at least with thamaturgy +20 complexity for the duration (to the nth generation) and +26 complex for defeating the persons concequences, then there are the powers which the spell give which include supernatural to mythic everything which is going to be at least another 40-50 complexity. So were dealing with about 100 complexity with thamaturgy as a bare minimum so to counter spell the ritual would they not have to match at least that amount of complexity. There is also the fact that the curse is probably not mortal magic and possibly behaving in ways not explained by normal spell behaviour which might make getting the proper research for the spell next to impossible or at least much more difficult.

[Drachasor]

The curse would be at least with thamaturgy +20 complexity for the duration (to the nth generation) and +26 complex for defeating the persons concequences, then there are the powers which the spell give which include supernatural to mythic everything which is going to be at least another 40-50 complexity. So were dealing with about 100 complexity with thamaturgy as a bare minimum so to counter spell the ritual would they not have to match at least that amount of complexity. There is also the fact that the curse is probably not mortal magic and possibly behaving in ways not explained by normal spell behaviour which might make getting the proper research for the spell next to impossible or at least much more difficult.

The rules don't indicate that you pay any particular complexity to create the various powers, and even if you paid 1 shift per refresh, that's not anywhere close to another 40-50 complexity.  The generation thing, assuming that's part of it, could be less than 20 easily, 13 shifts is already several mortal lifetimes, which is about a wizard's lifetime, give or take.  By the time you got to 15 already, we're talking about thousands of years.

In any case, even 200 complexity is not outside the bounds of mortal means though.  It is just going to take longer to put things together and come up with the necessarily links, aspects to tap, etc, etc.  It's still quite doable in principle, even if difficult.  In the end, the GM determines whether it can be done or not, and I am just recommending that path if it is an option.  Bargaining with Fae really shouldn't be on the top list of things to do.

[bitterpill]

At the very least any transformation spell includes the shifts for taking someone out and you would argue that either for 1 shift of power you can have one shift of refresh or that it costs no complexity, well with the no complexity theory that makes the loup garrou curse the same complexity as the dark hallow as you can have infinite refresh worth of powers and even with the 1 complexity idea this would mean that you could make a character pretty much undefeatable for thier life time for about 60 complexity, if a PC said he was going to pull this kind of ritual and another PC was ok with being changed would you allow it in your games.

The reason Im 'overpricing it' is because ritual like this have a horrific potential for PC to abuse, so the pricing stratergy for this ritual should  keeps PCs from getting that level of power without degrading themselves and breaking the laws of magic. Otherwise your find the PC have gone and turned themselves into gods and ruined your universe. 

[Moriden]

even with the 1 complexity idea this would mean that you could make a character pretty much undefeatable for thier life time for about 60 complexity, if a PC said he was going to pull this kind of ritual and another PC was ok with being changed would you allow it in your game

The ritual works, congratulations your at -35 refresh, please hand over your character sheet.

[bitterpill]

Oh yer I forgot about the whole refresh free will limit thing sorry.

[Drachasor]

At the very least any transformation spell includes the shifts for taking someone out and you would argue that either for 1 shift of power you can have one shift of refresh or that it costs no complexity, well with the no complexity theory that makes the loup garrou curse the same complexity as the dark hallow as you can have infinite refresh worth of powers and even with the 1 complexity idea this would mean that you could make a character pretty much undefeatable for thier life time for about 60 complexity, if a PC said he was going to pull this kind of ritual and another PC was ok with being changed would you allow it in your games.

The reason Im 'overpricing it' is because ritual like this have a horrific potential for PC to abuse, so the pricing stratergy for this ritual should  keeps PCs from getting that level of power without degrading themselves and breaking the laws of magic. Otherwise your find the PC have gone and turned themselves into gods and ruined your universe. 

Doesn't ruin the universe at all.  The PC would become an NPC if they did something like that.  Besides, I already said it is up to the GM to determine if it is allowable.  Personally, the rules for Thaumaturgy are a bit lacking in terms of research difficulty, but I don't think the shifts needed are the problem at all.  As for the 1 shift = 1 refresh, does it make any difference if it is 2 or 3 shifts?  10 shifts?  No, it doesn't, because shifts are EASY to get, pretty much.  Have the difficulty of doing the research determined by the GM and you can rough through this sort of thing since there aren't really any guidelines...increasing shifts required solves nothing.

[bitterpill]

Your probably right about the costs of thamaturgy the only downside  when you include the refresh limit is that the other PC will have to deal with athe potential for Supernatural Heavy Hitter to suddenly appear amongst there ranks but considering the large utlity value in the potential for amusement from this type of ritual and the fact that I could use it to create a pet super golum or supercharge one of my familiars so that it was a pet Behemoth out ways the potential balance issues. 

[tymire]

Bah it would be great fun to have one of your parties characters be a Loup Garou.  No need to make them into a NPC.  I mean come on just think of all the challenges they (and the party) would have to overcome too keep it in control.  Moment the character loses it, it becomes a killing machine toward anything living around them.....  There is a reaon why they call it a curse you know.

[Drachasor]

Bah it would be great fun to have one of your parties characters be a Loup Garou.  No need to make them into a NPC.  I mean come on just think of all the challenges they (and the party) would have to overcome too keep it in control.  Moment the character loses it, it becomes a killing machine toward anything living around them.....  There is a reaon why they call it a curse you know.

Thankfully it only happens on nights with a full moon, not based on emotional stress or anything.  If it did, then having one in the party would be a TPK...have you checked out the stats on that thing?  PHYSICAL IMMUNITY to everything except inherited silver, and mythic stuff out the wazoo.  It would kill most parties superquick.

[Emburii]

UPDATE

I'd thought of trading the Loup-Garou's power itself in return for my character getting her wizard stuff back (she'd had it all ripped away in a recent conflict), but wasn't sure if it'd be legal.  Turns out it was and the GM was fine with it.  The scene didn't go quite as I expected, but the Loup-Garou is taken care.  She even got to meet Vadderung, which is pretty significant since the character's Norse-ish in religion and is wielding Gungnir.  It's not quite how I would have liked things to go, but it worked.

She's still part of the Council, though, which means she and the Lawbreaker are going to come into conflict.  The Lawbreaker's player knows the mechanics better than I do and doesn't mind the idea.  I hate it.  Haaaaate it.  I don't like fighting PCs, when I'm playing a game I'd rather solve some problems than get into lethal quarrels with the other people around me (please, no wrongfun chiding).  This is the one problem this outcome didn't fix, but it's a biggie.

[Drachasor]

She's still part of the Council, though, which means she and the Lawbreaker are going to come into conflict.  The Lawbreaker's player knows the mechanics better than I do and doesn't mind the idea.  I hate it.  Haaaaate it.  I don't like fighting PCs, when I'm playing a game I'd rather solve some problems than get into lethal quarrels with the other people around me (please, no wrongfun chiding).  This is the one problem this outcome didn't fix, but it's a biggie.

I know what you mean.  I'm that way in a group and even with what TV shows I like.

I am not sure what sort of options you have if the Lawbreaker isn't recalcitrant.  Not much to do other than kill him if they don't want to reform, roleplaying-wise.  If they haven't gone Lawbreaker yet, but seem interested, I'd put in a call to the White Council saying you are suspicious of this person and that if you disappear then there's a good chance they broke a Law and managed to kill you went you tried to confront them.  Beyond that start working on a plan to take them out if you have to, preferably you want to catch them completely by surprise and ideally without much access to magic (running water is great here, or getting them into a threshold uninvited).  Of course, what you can do is going to be limited by your Lore and their ability to detect you being deceitful.

It sucks, but I am not sure what else you can do if the GM and this player are into it.  Eh, maybe if this character gets killed he'll make one that isn't like that?  (It isn't like there is a gray area if he breaks a law...you pretty much have to kill him if he isn't totally recalcitrant...and even if he is sorry, you still have to fight for him in a trial and you both get the potential death sentence).

[bitterpill]

The best way to deal with a wizard is contacts with contact 5 and connections to the mobs you can arrange a sniper to take them down from afar even if it dosen't kill them and it shouldn't with all the concequences it makes them to weak to fight back, it does not even break the laws of magic. So if you want to win persuade the rest of the party they want to help you, persuade your backers or just get backup.