Newbie Players And Basic Tactics

[bibliophile20]

Alright, so, Friday night I ran my usual session for my six-pack of college freshmen newbie players, and things went massively off the rails.  So massively so that I had to think of a legitimate reason that I couldn't just kill half the party for being too stupid to live.  And that got me thinking on newbie players and basic tactical training/thinking.

Backing up: Here's the precipitating incident: I had half of the PCs and most of the allied PCs in custody elsewhere, having been captured at the end of last session.  The warden, the photomancer and the NPC hydromancer have just returned from Edinburgh via L-Space and are in the 4th subbasement of the local university's main library.  I ask them to roll Lore for magical awareness, and the wizard get's a +7.  I tell him that he's detecting a malevolent presence that's extremely unhappy with him; the trio moves towards the elevators as the creepy background music I'm playing builds to a crescendo; the numbers roll down, the elevator dings, the music hits the high point, the door opens...

It's a janitor.    He starts walking out of the elevator, pushing his cleaning cart; they can hear the bass beat from his headphones.

Relieved laughter, but the wizard isn't satisfied; he rolls a perception check with a +5 result, to see if he notices anything about the janitor as he walks by, and asks for a self-compel on one of aspects.  I sigh.  So much for my foreshadowing.  The janitor isn't breathing. 

The warden panics, lightning bolts the suspected zombie, and fries its' MP3 player.  Almost instantly, a drumbeat starts playing over the building speakers as the zombie twitches on the ground, and the trio bolts for the stairs--and the doors refuse to open.  They end up having to blow down the doors in question, and again on ground level.

They run to their car in a nearby parking lot... which refuses to start. 

And here's the major tactical blunder.  The wizard's player asks me where the nearest, highest point is.  Since we're playing on the campus in question, I mutely point towards the library that they had just exited out of.  The wizard casts levitating spells on the three of them and they head for the roof.  "Now what?"  "Um... is there an open window around?"  To make a long story short, the wizard lead them back inside the library's upper floors, inside the enclosed, close, unlit environment of a office wing on a weekend--or, in other words, a battlefield perfect for ambushes by Dresdenverse zombies, and where evocation might bring the roof down on their heads. 

I ended up rationalizing that their opponent couldn't get enough forces into place fast enough, and, as this side-tracking had gone on long enough, so I paid them two fate points each, told them to take two consequences each and that they had managed to escape without debilitating injuries (or, was implied, they could refuse the fate points and see how much deeper a hole they could dig for themselves). 

As for what's going on behind the scenes

(click to show/hide)

I "borrowed" a setting place from the New World of Darkness book Mysterious Places, modified it for Dresden (which wasn't that hard) and dropped it in; short version, the campus has/is a young, malevolent and possibly Outsider-ish genius loci; last semester, the janitors went on strike; the loci simply replaced them with the medical anatomy corpses that had just been delivered (which is still an ongoing mystery).  It has complete control over anything associated with the university--speakers, doors, locks, engines... you get the idea.  Luckily for the PCs, it doesn't have Intellectus yet.

So, after the session was over, I had a little talk with the players about tactics; all of them are college freshmen, and the most experienced ones have had all of their tactical experience happen on a grid with 30 ft movement rates.  I told them very straight that I do not want to start killing PCs, but I will if they act stupid.  After the little talk and when I got home, I sent out the following attached to the "here's what happened this week; clarifications/links/details/stuff to discuss" email:

Now, advice time.  Specifically, tactics.

First, state the obvious.  Usually, this will feel redundant, but it helps to remind you of where you are and sometimes of things you've overlooked.

Second, assess your assets.  Weapons, gear, allies, information, etc.  Your environment is always an asset if you're creative enough.  As a subset of that, pick your battlefields carefully, and choose ones that maximize your advantages and minimize your disadvantages.  Try not to let your enemy pick the battlefield, because he'll be doing the same thing.

Third, determine your goal.  What are you trying to accomplish?  Keep this in mind; too many battle plans, in real life as well as gaming, are embroidered to the point of obscuring the original goal.  Remember that someone actually stated, in a matter of fact tone, "It has become necessary to destroy the village in order to save it."

Fourth; no plan survives contact with the enemy; keep your goal in mind, and keep that goal and your plan open to revision--and scrapping, if necessary.  Don't keep on revising a plan past the point where it is no longer useful.

Fifth: the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.  The more details and complications you throw into your plan, the more likely it is to fail; that doesn't mean complicated plans can't work, but in a battle between complicated plans, the least complicated plan usually wins, all other things being equal.  Thinking laterally, however, can often be a simple, winning tactic.

Sixth: the Indy Ploy--making it up as you go along--only works if you have a solid grasp of 1-3.

Seventh, the hardest part: Know thine enemy.  Know what he can do, what he can't do.  Know his numbers, their disposition, their command structure, their goals, their plans.  And take what you can and try to figure out the rest--and then, figure out how to disrupt it.

So, first, asking what people think of my little primer.  Second, anything to add to it?  And third: of my PCs, two of the characters themselves should know better tactics from their backstories; one is retired SAS, and the other was the apprentice of Morgan's best friend and occasionally trained with Morgan himself.  Can they compel those high concepts of theirs to ask the GM for tactical advice?

Thanks in advance.

[cgodfrey7]

Given their backgrounds, I would ask them to make a check, then depending on how well they make their check, present a few options as things to consider.  Tell them in the future they need to ask to make that check, as none of us have the same knowledge as the character we created.

[UmbraLux]

...things went massively off the rails. 

In my opinion, off the rails is a good thing!  Don't let yourself get locked into "one true way-isms".

So, first, asking what people think of my little primer.  Second, anything to add to it? 

It looks ok though non-specific.  I'd also mention teamwork, declarations, maneuvers, and aspect stacking.  Remind them d20's attrition style of combat doesn't work well in FATE.

And third: of my PCs, two of the characters themselves should know better tactics from their backstories; one is retired SAS, and the other was the apprentice of Morgan's best friend and occasionally trained with Morgan himself.  Can they compel those high concepts of theirs to ask the GM for tactical advice?

Perhaps, though compels don't usually benefit the character (other than gaining a fate point).  I'd use it sparingly if at all.

One piece of advice worth mentioning to you as GM - remember everything their characters perceive is filtered through you.  If they're unaware the library is potentially full of zombies and prepared ground it's because communicating that item failed.  Use the "rule of three" - always give at least three clues, three options, three solutions, or whatever. 

[bibliophile20]

@cgodfrey  Good idea.  Any suggestions as to what the roll(s) could be?

@ UmbraLux: Going off the rails is good.  Going off the rails when half of the party is off elsewhere isn't.  Going off the rails and then consistently re-acting in a panicky manner and leading your group into ambushes is worse.  I have no objection to off-the-rails: right now, the WCV Scientist that's holding half of the team has gone from "Big Bad" to "Potential Long Term Medical/Lore Resource And Romantic Option" thanks to some excellently RP'ed social combat.  I have objections to it when the "off the rails" requires me to save the PCs from their players' stupidity. 

As for the "rule of three" this was supposed to be clue #1 and foreshadowing for later.  So you can't tell me that going off the rails is good and then tell me that I didn't do enough foreshadowing and communication.  And you also can't tell me that I need to do three solutions when I kept trying, and they kept picking really tactically stupid ones; I can't save them from themselves and their own stupidity without taking away control from the PCs--which is what I ended up having to do. 

As for mentioning "teamwork, declarations, maneuvers, and aspect stacking," that's all system stuff.  I'm trying to teach a primer with a "non-specific" outlook of general tactical thinking which will be useful in any gaming situation, not overload them. 

  My apologies for my tone, UmbraLux, but give me some credit on having some skill as a GM; I do know about the rule of three, I know about Checkov's Gun and others of their ilk; I was doing my best to keep their asses in the frying pan and out of the fire, and I ended up having to assume direct control to save their characters from their players.  So, the purpose of this post was to ask "I have players that tend to panic and react rather than assess and act.  How can I advise the players on how to do the latter and not the former?" 

[cgodfrey7]

Investigation comes to mind quickly, but maybe supported by Scholarship (military background info) or Survival or even Weapons stretching things a little.  You might also pose it to your players, get them to analyze their skills and make suggestions, which will get them more involved in reviewing what other things their skills can do as well  

I think this was mentioned already, but to make Physical person have his shining moment, get some things up in the faces of the group, that somehow interfere with concentration a little, like attacking with pointy knuckle things to inflict pain, causing wizards to make a concentration check to keep focus, or throw running water into the scene somehow.

[UmbraLux]

I'll pass on responding to most of your post.  However:

So, the purpose of this post was to ask "I have players that tend to panic and react rather than assess and act.  How can I advise the players on how to do the latter and not the former?"

1) Explicitly give multiple options and 2) take away any real life time pressure.  Good luck.

[noclue]

For dudes who can levitate and blow through walls, what's the problem with being on the upper floors of a building again?

[bitterpill]

This is Fate and if your playing up to submerged which to play wizards you really must then nothing in that senario was that dangerous, Zombies are cool and all but a wizard could easily dispatch them with area fire attacks which would also deal with the light. Bringing down a roof on somones head would mean an alertness check and then atheletics check to get out of there or form a block with evocation. I would even let the wizards roll lore instead of alertness to feel the evocation and run or shield. A roof would either do lethal plot damage or not that much damage at all to a character with at least 22 points worth of stress that really up to you.

[MijRai]

For dudes who can levitate and blow through walls, what's the problem with being on the upper floors of a building again?

It wasn't being on the roof that was the problem. It was going inside, where they were pretty well trapped. Think of it like Harry's apartment in Dead Beat, but with no wards and a dozen ways to get in that you know of. Add in a lack of good lighting and an entity that controls the zombies and most likely knows where you are, and you have a problem.

This is Fate and if your playing up to submerged which to play wizards you really must then nothing in that senario was that dangerous, Zombies are cool and all but a wizard could easily dispatch them with area fire attacks which would also deal with the light. Bringing down a roof on somones head would mean an alertness check and then atheletics check to get out of there or form a block with evocation. I would even let the wizards roll lore instead of alertness to feel the evocation and run or shield. A roof would either do lethal plot damage or not that much damage at all to a character with at least 22 points worth of stress that really up to you.

bitterpill, they were in a library. You know, lots of paper and shelves. Destroying buildings is never a good idea in the first, place, especially when you are in them. Your fire could (and if the players were 'smart' enough to do it, I would) spread to block exits, or trap them between a horde of those zombies. Even Harry knows that. Zombies are a bigger threat then you think as well. The good ones have Inhuman Toughness, Speed and Strength, which means they are hitting with weapon 2s at around 3 or 4, dodging at 4 or 5, and can take a five shift hit without going down. Combine that with Ambush, or numbers spread into a number of zones so you can't one-punch them, and they are a big threat. Otherwise why would necromancers bother with zombies, if they were so weak?

And a roof falling does whatever the GM wants it to do, which in my opinion is a 4-8 shift attack, which will most likely force them to take a moderate consequence at the stronger end, if not more. Whether or not they have 22 points of stress (now less after the hit), if they have an aspect on them that the enemy can assess and use against them in every scene of the game, they are going to have trouble.

[bitterpill]

I once invoked the aspect burning building and drew the fire in from the surrounding area and directed it an enemy which you could argue would clear a block and do more damage to the enemy though it was a 10 shift spell with a wizard with the right focuses he didn't even have to take a concequence and that was at submerged. Wizards are pretty much never out of options and wizards the gm have actually allowed to fly are never out of escape roots like the massive hole where the roof was.

[Lanir]

You kind of describe your players as being pretty clueless. You presented a detailed solution to get around that but if they're having to think about the steps instead of just implementing them, you've just introduced another distraction. That method of problem resolution works great but it has a learning curve. If it didn't, everyone would use it all the time. So for the moment at least it falls victim to the KISS rule and gets discarded.

One of the best ways people learn things is by making mistakes. What you can do is help present situations where mistakes have noteworthy and motivating consequences that are non-lethal and don't completely wreck your story. There is a problem you can run into as a GM where your players are actively trying to wreck the story by doing stupid or suicidal things and that has a totally different solution. But it doesn't sound like that's what you're dealing with here.

[bibliophile20]

@Mijrai: thank you for the outbreak of realism.  Much appreciated.

@Hey, Bitterpill, I've got some news for you: My game isn't at Submerged!  Right now, they've all got 9 base refresh. Also, amazingly, not everyone takes fire as an evocation element.  My wizard-warden PC is an earth mage, with Air, Earth and Spirit for evocation.  Also, remember that fire is still just that: fire.  Hot air and smoke are still going to be issues, even if your GM has allowed your wizard to draw off the flames from your zone, which is something that makes me go "buh?"  And I said they levitated; not fly.  They climbed up the side of the building with a fraction of their weight.  And you just proved my point for me even better: wizards that are creative are never out of options; they could have had the hydromancer bust open a pipe and slid out of there, Bobby Drake-Iceman-style, just for one example.  The issue is that they disregarded all of those options and went into a place where their options would be constrained because they weren't thinking, they were reacting.

Also, you're forgetting one major, massive issue: There. Are. Still. People. In. The. Building.  People work late, even on the weekends.  Students are studying.  Setting the building on fire, or even using any evocations indiscriminately, is an invitation to take Lawbreaker. 

@ Lanir: I agree, we all need to start learning somewhere, and making mistakes is one of the best ways.  The list I posted was sent after the session was over as a basic primer points-to-keep-in-mind.  But, in this case, which precipitated the list, the mistakes could easily have been lethal, and should have been.  But, yeah, they need to be allowed to make mistakes.  I was just trying to share some of what I've learned so they don't make as many (in my first RPG game ever, my PC started two wars--completely by accident, so been there, done that)

[bitterpill]

Sorry fire was only one example of an area of effect spell  air, spirit could also be used to take out a bunch of zombies in a couple of hits, you have the options of planar layers of force with all of them although the limit of not satisfying a catch is a slight hicup. At 9 refresh you can still be throwing around up 8 to eight shifts of area effect spells which is enough to one hit anything without concequences. Im just saying unless you did something to nulify the effects of your caster like sprinklers or like sucking all the of the magic out of the area then Wizard will have an option to come out on top that is somewhat the point of Wizards there a swiss army knife and a lethal one at that.   

[Sanctaphrax]

In that situation, I would have given the players a clear warning that they were doing something dumb. It doesn't break the reality of the scene as much as most other solutions.

If that doesn't work, you could just have the zombies attack stupidly. Target the guy with Toughness, maneuver only when it's a bad idea, etc. They're brainless, after all, and nobody said that genius loci have to be good strategists.

As for the wizard vs zombies fight, I'd expect the zombies to put up a pretty good fight. IIRC zombies have great defenses and five-box stress tracks with armour 1. A six-shift evocation or a zone-wide seven-shift evocation will force them to take consequences. That would be easy for an optimized evoker, but an ordinary wizard would have trouble putting up numbers like that without taking backlash or fallout. What's worse, the zombies have Inhuman Speed and so will act first against all but the most alert wizards. And losing initiative as a wizard is bad news.

[Drachasor]

If they are still learning how to work things, I'd advise tossing enemies at them that wouldn't immediately killed them.  Getting captured and hurt a lot a few times is going to make them rethink their strategies, especially since consequences stick around for a while.  Also, you don't necessarily have to kill them if they get taken out, they could just get chased away.  Stuff like that, along with some of the advice others have given, will make them think smarter without turning things into a binary live/die situation.