Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation

[jybil178]

With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.

Give me one example of a wizard using his magic in this way to begin with in the books... And ANYWAY, you can only use certain fields of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, depending on your sponsor.  Summer's thing is Biomancy, Winter's thing is Entropomancy... For what your using it, stick with Evocation... Besides a couple of quick benefits, like using summer to help mend a friends wounds RIGHT NOW, or placing an Entropy curse on your opponent to put him at a disadvantage or something else, depending on your Sponsor's field, if it even has one... Its just one thing a Sponsor can give, they have a lot of other benefits...

And it even states it earlier in the books as well as the RPG.. Thaumaturgy really isn't ment for combat, but a clever player/character could use it to give himself an edge, in a good number of situations...  Its just really, the nature of the beast...

And I don't have a problem with using the RAW... I just don't like a player looking at them, and either doctoring, or cherry picking because of poor wording, and trying to get the best benefits they can manage...

[Drachasor]

A character would have to be at least submerged or better to pull something like that off.  In that case, I doubt they'd need it.

My character is chest deep and cannot pull off anytihng close to that kind of power.  With those rules, I don't think I'd ever in a million years use this ability.

Not everyone is able to call up 8+ shifts of power.

I despise the rules you're suggesting because they pretty much only benefit very high powered casters and leave everyone else in the cold.

A weaker caster is logically going to more often find greater benefit from doing things without magic than a more powerful caster.  The rules do explicitly state maneuvers last for one scene (look under Thaumaturgy and how it goes over duration).

And a Chest Deep Caster could do an 8-shift spell with no repercussions outside of the scene they do it in.  Let's say they have Sponsored Magic, no refinement, a +2 Focus on control, and 4 in Discipline and Conviction.  They call up 8 shifts, that is a 4 mental hit, they have a box for it, they roll Discipline, take some physical backlash (they can have a box for that fairly easily), and boom, 8 shift spell that's fully controlled.  That only uses up two 4 skill point slots, and 4 refresh, so in fact someone lower than Chest Deep could do it.  You can't do it like it is a joke, but you can do it.  Spend a bit more refresh or two more focus slots (assuming you have the lore for it), and you could make it pretty darn easy.

[Drachasor]

Give me one example of a wizard using his magic in this way to begin with in the books... And ANYWAY, you can only use certain fields of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, depending on your sponsor.  Summer's thing is Biomancy, Winter's thing is Entropomancy... For what your using it, stick with Evocation... Besides a couple of quick benefits, like using summer to help mend a friends wounds RIGHT NOW, or placing an Entropy curse on your opponent to put him at a disadvantage or something else, depending on your Sponsor's field, if it even has one... Its just one thing a Sponsor can give, they have a lot of other benefits...

Actually, Winter and Summer allow the elements "Winter" and "Summer" to be used in evocations.  So you could make an Aspect "Imbued with Summer Magic" and apply it to yourself, spending that on any future spell you do that uses fire, growth, wildness, etc.  You could even make a Summer Magic Focus, as I understand it (Summer Magic is an evocation ELEMENT to you if you are sponsored), and take refinements to give your summer magic greater potency.

[sinker]

Jybil is talking specifically about the fields of thaumaturgy that summer and winter allow you to perform with evocation's means and speed. Specifically for evocation they do have their own element and it functions exactly as you describe.

[BumblingBear]

A weaker caster is logically going to more often find greater benefit from doing things without magic than a more powerful caster.  The rules do explicitly state maneuvers last for one scene (look under Thaumaturgy and how it goes over duration).

And a Chest Deep Caster could do an 8-shift spell with no repercussions outside of the scene they do it in.  Let's say they have Sponsored Magic, no refinement, a +2 Focus on control, and 4 in Discipline and Conviction.  They call up 8 shifts, that is a 4 mental hit, they have a box for it, they roll Discipline, take some physical backlash (they can have a box for that fairly easily), and boom, 8 shift spell that's fully controlled.  That only uses up two 4 skill point slots, and 4 refresh, so in fact someone lower than Chest Deep could do it.  You can't do it like it is a joke, but you can do it.  Spend a bit more refresh or two more focus slots (assuming you have the lore for it), and you could make it pretty darn easy.

Ok you've got a point there...

I just don't see it as being viable from a RP standpoint.  I doubt my character would ever leave himself so weakened or hurt for such a small bonus.  I mean, what if you take the physical stress or consequences for doing this and then get attacked?  It's a dangerous world and my character does not get a lot of downtime.

So you're correct.  I suppose it could be done by a character with my PC's power, I just don't see how the benefits would really be all that great unless the bonuses last until sunrise and are all encompassing.

I don't think that my suggestions of having a set of 2 aspects for both combat and social situations for a total of 4 aspects would be OP...

Especially for the amount of attention it could draw to that character.

I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.

[sinker]

I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.

Firstly that example is using more refresh. Secondly it has it's own downsides. Thirdly I'm not sure everyone is ok with it, however it is RAW.

I know you feel like we're "nerfing" the concept, however what we're doing is discussing whether the concept is RAW. If it's not then you're free to house rule, but don't expect anyone to necessarily back you up on it.

[jybil178]

I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.

I'm not familiar with the thread where this was done.. But I'm guess, like sinker mentioned, it would have its own problems... Honestly, i'm quite curious to how you could manage the 700 shifts, and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be easy.. Plus, devoting yourself so strongly to your "items" would leave you quite weakened if your access was cut off from them... Could you link me to the thread, and maybe mention how it was done as well?

[Drachasor]

I'm not familiar with the thread where this was done.. But I'm guess, like sinker mentioned, it would have its own problems... Honestly, i'm quite curious to how you could manage the 700 shifts, and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be easy.. Plus, devoting yourself so strongly to your "items" would leave you quite weakened if your access was cut off from them... Could you link me to the thread, and maybe mention how it was done as well?

Pretty sure it is 700 shifts altogether in items, not 700 at a time.  Not hard.

Lore 5, Thamauturgy with +1 frequency, 5 Refresh for +5 power, +5 frequency Foci for Crafting, that means each item has 7 uses and is at 10 shifts.  So that's 70 shifts per item, then you just need 10 items (you'd start with 4 items from Thaumaturgy, so you'd need 1.5 more refresh for items).  That's 9 Refresh spent total, so it would be a minimum of an 10 Refresh game.  That's with me keeping the math simple and not bothering with calculus to maximize shifts available.

[toturi]

I know you feel like we're "nerfing" the concept, however what we're doing is discussing whether the concept is RAW. If it's not then you're free to house rule, but don't expect anyone to necessarily back you up on it.

Eh? If the concept is RAW but the GM feels he cannot/will not/whatever deal with it, he can house rule it. If the concept is not RAW, then there is no need to house rule it in the first place, is there?

[jybil178]

Pretty sure it is 700 shifts altogether in items, not 700 at a time.  Not hard.

Lore 5, Thamauturgy with +1 frequency, 5 Refresh for +5 power, +5 frequency Foci for Crafting, that means each item has 7 uses and is at 10 shifts.  So that's 70 shifts per item, then you just need 10 items (you'd start with 4 items from Thaumaturgy, so you'd need 1.5 more refresh for items).  That's 9 Refresh spent total, so it would be a minimum of an 10 Refresh game.  That's with me keeping the math simple and not bothering with calculus to maximize shifts available.

Hehe, one of the most munchkiny things i've ever seen >.< and thats saying a lot!

[jybil178]

Eh? If the concept is RAW but the GM feels he cannot/will not/whatever deal with it, he can house rule it. If the concept is not RAW, then there is no need to house rule it in the first place, is there?

Hehe, why we are discussing it so much ^^ Its hard to determine if its RAW or not, and what we'd need to do with the rules as they fall pretty much... having a blast with the thread so far, hehe...

[BumblingBear]

Hehe, why we are discussing it so much ^^ Its hard to determine if its RAW or not, and what we'd need to do with the rules as they fall pretty much... having a blast with the thread so far, hehe...

Someone should just ask Fred.  I actually just might do that.

[jybil178]

I would think about it, but I'm kinda new to the forums, and I doubt I'd be payed much attention... Would love to discuss the topic though with him, but I don't know if thats really possible >,<

[sinker]

If you email him he is at least likely to respond. He doesn't exactly have the time to chat (otherwise I'm sure he'd be on here more often) but he is pretty good at getting back to people (regardless of their forum standing  ).

[BumblingBear]

If you email him he is at least likely to respond. He doesn't exactly have the time to chat (otherwise I'm sure he'd be on here more often) but he is pretty good at getting back to people (regardless of their forum standing  ).

That's what I've heard too.

Unless someone else does, I will probably email him tomorrow.