Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation

[Drachasor]

As long as a player does not try to munchkin out, I don't see a reason why it would be necessary to make house rules on this.

I plan on trying this in my next gaming session for 1 set of two taggable aspects for social engagements and 1 set of two taggable aspects for combat.

I can cast those two spells, then use my last two mental stress in that scene to extend them both.

I don't see this as broken, because if the GM really wanted to, he could throw a petty thug or two at me after having done this in a scene and I'd have to take consequences just to defend myself.

There's going to be a house rule one way or another.  Either all the players (other wizard in the party) are going to agree to limits more or less, which is a defacto House Rule, or the GM will lay one down.  Personally, I recommend the latter just for the sake of clarity.  Remember, the wizard can do this sort of thing as a ritual in the morning, potentially; he just can't do it as easily and as frequently as you (needs all that prep time).

[BumblingBear]

There's going to be a house rule one way or another.  Either all the players (other wizard in the party) are going to agree to limits more or less, which is a defacto House Rule, or the GM will lay one down.  Personally, I recommend the latter just for the sake of clarity.  Remember, the wizard can do this sort of thing as a ritual in the morning, potentially; he just can't do it as easily and as frequently as you (needs all that prep time).

Indeed.  Thanks for pointing that out.

If they want to, Wizards can be just as OP.  They just can't be as lazy about it. lol

[sinker]

There's a reason why this actually isn't RAW. Everyone keeps forgetting that it's not "Thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation." It's "Thaumaturgy with evocation's means and speed." Which means it's really just evocation that is capable of some of thaumaturgy's effects. So the thaumaturgic duration chart is actually not appropriate.

Doesn't mean you can't do this exact thing using normal thaumaturgy though....

[jybil178]

M'kay, I think I get it now... I guess I just misunderstood, because it sounded the original poster of the current subject was talking about casting a spell, then using a second spell to extend the duration of the spell he cast just before hand.

But yeah.. That seems pretty.. broken, or at least having a lot of potential for it.. But really, if you think about it (while its not really in RAW) wouldn't it be harder to place so many spells in technically the same place, IE yourself/ your soul?  So maybe you could consider it, that with each spell already on yourself, the next becomes more difficult or complex to place, because your running low on metaphysical room... Now if you have a spell that places three aspects on yourself, then you decide to put a smaller one aspect spell, it'd only be the start of the increase.. but if you got those four aspects from four separate spells, then with my idea, the final spell would come around at an extra 3 complexity... Does something like that make sense to anyone else, and or balanced?

[Moriden]

M'kay, I think I get it now... I guess I just misunderstood, because it sounded the original poster of the current subject was talking about casting a spell, then using a second spell to extend the duration of the spell he cast just before hand.

Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague. Personally i make the practitioner use both, ie one shift for each additional exchange the spell can be used [no i do not require them to be consecutive], and one shift per boost on the thaumaturgical duration chart. I'm not sure i can really recommend that method or not as the power level of game i am comfortable running is likely much higher then most peoples.

I had the thought that i should probably say that i do not allow any variation of the infinite aspect loop in my games, i only allow the first iteration, you can have your 1-3 aspects at sufficiently long duration, or your armer/block at sufficient duration, but you cant boost the power of the armer spell after it was cast only the duration. 

[jybil178]

Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague. Personally i make the practitioner use both, ie one shift for each additional exchange the spell can be used [no i do not require them to be consecutive], and one shift per boost on the thaumaturgical duration chart. I'm not sure i can really recommend that method or not as the power level of game i am comfortable running is likely much higher then most peoples.

I had the thought that i should probably say that i do not allow any variation of the infinite aspect loop in my games, i only allow the first iteration, you can have your 1-3 aspects at sufficiently long duration, or your armer/block at sufficient duration, but you cant boost the power of the armer spell after it was cast only the duration. 

And your only using this particular rule, in the Evocation sections, because you are casting thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, correct?

[sinker]

Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague.

1. YS259 is part of evocation, and refers specifically to evocation.

2. A quote from YS259:

Summon one shift of power per additional
exchange you want the spell to last,

[Moriden]

1. YS259 is part of evocation, and refers specifically to evocation.

Your useing thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods so you can use the prolonging option. weather your extending it one exchange or one step on the time chart is the question. personally i dont see anything in the raw saying that you have to use either one, so i require people to use both. your interpretation and mileage may vary.

And your only using this particular rule, in the Evocation sections, because you are casting thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, correct?

Yes. otherwise it would only extend the spell one exchange per success, while i personally don't require those exchanges to be consecutive most gms probably will.

[Kommisar]

Well, I will point out two non-crunchy elements to this whole "Load up on the Taggable Aspects" thing.

1)  I got your counter.  My garden hose.  Or a rain storm.  You can layer as many magical effects over yourself as you wish... but a hit with the hose is washing it all off.  For the bare minimum 3 shifts per tag, they are not surviving a good dowsing of running water.

2)  Just like the crafter carrying around 700 shifts of magic on his person; you are going to GLOW to the supernatural world.  I'm not sure how some of you guys are running your games; but in mine (and what I have taken away from the novels) is that drawing undue attention to yourself is not smart.  As a GM/ST or whatever, if one of my players did this, I would let them know upfront that the consequences of such is a LOT more random encounters with all sorts of strange things.  And not all of them straight up fights either!

You would be a walking "Disturbance in the Force" if you laid it on thick enough.  Echos of you would ripple through the Nevernever.  

Have fun with that!!!  

[Moriden]

Have fun with that!!!   Grin

I know i would.

[sinker]

Your useing thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods so you can use the prolonging option. weather your extending it one exchange or one step on the time chart is the question. personally i dont see anything in the raw saying that you have to use either one, so i require people to use both. your interpretation and mileage may vary.

Yes. otherwise it would only extend the spell one exchange per success, while i personally don't require those exchanges to be consecutive most gms probably will.

The big issue that I have is that the prolonging spells section states specifically how you extend the duration. By exchanges. I don't get why the thaumaturgic duration would come in at all. We're using evocation (even if it is a thaumaturgic effect) and an evocation rule that increases the duration specifically by exchanges.

[Drachasor]

The big issue that I have is that the prolonging spells section states specifically how you extend the duration. By exchanges. I don't get why the thaumaturgic duration would come in at all. We're using evocation (even if it is a thaumaturgic effect) and an evocation rule that increases the duration specifically by exchanges.

You use the Evocation rules for strength and casting, but as far as I can tell you should use the Thaumaturgy rules for the effect of the spell, and part of the effect is the duration.

[jybil178]

WELL... hmmm... This is rather interesting...

pg. 288, paragraph two of "What You Can Do With It"

But this isn’t always about finding the weak
spot in an enemy’s armor. Sometimes the power
source is instead more potent (or at least faster)
when directed against certain types of problems,
such as Summer’s ability to do more potent
healing effects (the sponsor takes care of all that
pesky biological know-how) and the ability to
do certain things with the effects of thaumaturgy,
but at the speed of evocation.

This in PARTICULAR is very interesting....

pg. 290,

Seelie (Summer) Magic
Drawing on the power of the Summer Court,
you’re able to cast spells that fit its essential
nature: wildness, birth, growth, renewal, fire.
These magics are under the sway and watch
of the Queens of Summer (Lady, Queen, and
Mother); making use of it will inevitably catch
their notice. If you think the Summer Court is
all warmth and light, consider that unbridled
growth favors an ebola virus just as much as it
does a pear tree.

Cost: 4 refresh for the package, not to mention
approval from one of the greater powers of
the Summer Court, such as Queen Titania or
Mother Summer. Reduce this cost by 1 if you
have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost
by 2 if you have both.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288). Summer magic is particularly effective
against faeries of the Winter Court; downgrade
the effectiveness of any Toughness ability
the target has by one step (Mythic Toughness
becomes Supernatural, Supernatural becomes
Inhuman, Inhuman goes away) when using this
magic against a Winter Court enemy.

In addition, Summer magic may be used as
an element for evocation, allowing evocation
spell effects that encourage wildness, birth,
growth, renewal, and warmth. This includes
the ability to produce effects along the lines of
biomancy (page 284) with less of a requirement
for biological expertise in the spellcaster—the
powers of Summer already understand biology
pretty well and will do the heavy lifting for the
caster—but with an evocation spell’s methods
and speed. Summer evocations always include
warmth and life in some way: summer flames
burn hotter, summer earth carries the warmth
of just-baked clay, summer spirit warms the
heart, and summer spells in general cause nearby
flowers to bloom and the ambient temperature
to rise.

There is an Exact mention of the bolded text in Unseelie (Winter) Magic as well, following the lines of Entropomancy instead of Summer's Biomancy... The point I'm getting to, is well.. It seems, according to the RAW, that you can only carry out the very specialized forms of Thaumaturgy, depending on your Sponsorship.. And that it doesn't allow ALL forms of Thaumaturgy to be cast at the speed of Evocation...

Now, the other thing, is the bolded text towards the end... Using Evocations methods and speed.  According to that, I'd say that... well.. You COULD increase its time, but it would be just for an exchange per shift... Rather than just making a simple block, you could use biomancy to help give yourself a little bit of an extra Oomph, and you could increases its duration as well... But, at least from my own personal reading on the subject, you couldn't increase its length along the normal Thaumaturgy Duration times...

Any thoughts or arguments?

[Drachasor]

There is an Exact mention of the bolded text in Unseelie (Winter) Magic as well, following the lines of Entropomancy instead of Summer's Biomancy... The point I'm getting to, is well.. It seems, according to the RAW, that you can only carry out the very specialized forms of Thaumaturgy, depending on your Sponsorship.. And that it doesn't allow ALL forms of Thaumaturgy to be cast at the speed of Evocation...

Correct.

Now, the other thing, is the bolded text towards the end... Using Evocations methods and speed.  According to that, I'd say that... well.. You COULD increase its time, but it would be just for an exchange per shift... Rather than just making a simple block, you could use biomancy to help give yourself a little bit of an extra Oomph, and you could increases its duration as well... But, at least from my own personal reading on the subject, you couldn't increase its length along the normal Thaumaturgy Duration times...

Any thoughts or arguments?

Methods:  You choose how many shifts of power and the effect, this is limited by your conviction (no worries about Lore).  You roll Discipline to control it (and perhaps to hit).
Speed:  You do it in an exchange, not in a ritual that takes minutes at least.
Effect:  The effect is the same as if you'd done it as a ritual with that power level and shifts devoted to each component in the same manner.  This includes longer duration when appropriate.

The rules are pretty clear on this, imho.  The state multiple times the effect will as per Thaumaturgy.  Short durations are an effect of traditional evocation.

[Kommisar]

Correct.

Methods:  You choose how many shifts of power and the effect, this is limited by your conviction (no worries about Lore).  You roll Discipline to control it (and perhaps to hit).
Speed:  You do it in an exchange, not in a ritual that takes minutes at least.
Effect:  The effect is the same as if you'd done it as a ritual with that power level and shifts devoted to each component in the same manner.  This includes longer duration when appropriate.

The rules are pretty clear on this, imho.  The state multiple times the effect will as per Thaumaturgy.  Short durations are an effect of traditional evocation.

I concur with this. 

I also concur that this can and should be limited to Thaum effects that fit your sponsor's agenda or idiom.  In the case of the wizard in my game (Shaman of Coyote), he is limited to animal shapeshifting at evocation speeds.  He can't start dropping, say, divination rituals at evocation speed.  Well, not at least without giving me a REALLY good reason why it fits in with Coyote and, of course, accruing some debt.