Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation

[bibliophile20]

Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.

The most annoying part would be the passerby looking for the Bollywood film crew. 

[Drachasor]

^^^ You made some excellent points, thank you.

I have some things to think about now.

Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.

Theoretically, that would be like... 4shifts for an armor of 2 (-2 to all of their attack rolls I believe since it happens before contact) and then 1 shift per escalated time frame via the table in YS for thaumatergy, right?

Actually, it would be 2 more shifts for a zone...

Actually, this would be a really expensive spell.  We're look at 4+2+2 minimum which is 8 shifts.  Ouch.

Never mind.

Worth it if there are a lot of enemies.

[jybil178]

Well, from what I've seen, most people immediately get taken in on sponsored magic by the thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.  At first you think its easily one of the most powerful, easily abusable powers in the setting. Then you realize, wait... What exactly CAN I do with this?

The answer, while potentially being still as broad as thaumaturgy normally would be, is significantly less potent.  For the most part, you just have to be clever and quick on your feet to get the most use of it.  Drachasor actually mentioned a lot of the ideas I'd thought of before to try to make use of it, as well as some I quite hadn't yet.  I'm very surprised, or I guess actually I'm not really, that you dismissed so many of his ideas.

But it comes right down to the idea, that thaumaturgy isn't really that useful for direct combat, at the speed of evocation or otherwise.  Any effects that would cause direct damage against your opponents would most likely be better off being a simple evocation blast.  The best benefits you could get, are ways to indirectly effect the combat, and better arrange things for you and your party to succeed...  But what YOU are looking for, I'm sorry, but these are not the droids you are looking for ;P  It just isn't...  So if you chose Sponsored Magic for Thaum at the speed of Evo, I'm sorry... You need to start looking at other advantages to having a sponsor.  Because what a sponsor really does, is really a whole lot more >.<

[Kommisar]

I think the point is the "Thaum at Evoc speed" is going to be more useful for some characters than others.  For a full on wizard with both Evoc and Thaum already its usefulness is in the more subtle uses and less in the straight-up, damage dealing combat arena.  But, now that I am really sitting here thinking through other, non-damage dealing uses, I can see how someone can really use this to good effect.  The divination uses could get scary quick with a smart player!  "Oh, I'm sorry, did I just bump into you there on the sidewalk."  And just happen to pull of a nice ritual in that heart beat.

Now, to a pure Thaumaturgist or Ritualist, this is a massive asset for obvious reasons.

So, it's all relative.  Your mileage may vary.

[BumblingBear]

As I said before, I am not a power gamer.  At least I didn't choose sponsored magic to be a power gamer.

My problem is mainly with the shifts of complexity necessary to do anything with thaumatergy at the speed of evocation.

I could help my team with some of these spells, but I'm much better off just waiting, multiplying taggable aspects, and then blasting a mob for 27 stress.

::shrug::

I've already got a full fledged wizard in my group and he does lore and thaumatergy stuff a /lot/ better than I could hope to.

[Moriden]

Apologies if this was already brought up.

My problem is mainly with the shifts of complexity necessary to do anything with thaumatergy at the speed of evocation.

I could help my team with some of these spells, but I'm much better off just waiting, multiplying taggable aspects, and then blasting a mob for 27 stress.

::shrug::

Okay so say you have summer magic. you get Biomancy at evocation speeds. you cast a rote Biomantic self alteration, so its not a violation of the laws. for 6 shifts you can get two taggable aspects. duration like one round, so who cares right,? its a little better then just naval gazing but not much. Heres the thing that nearly any dm wont let you do but is what makes this situation absurd, and I'm fairly certain is RAW valid. You use the time duration chart from thaumaturgy while using the evocation ability to be boosted by further spells. so you wakeup cast your buff , and then cast your second rote of extend the first spell. Moveing 5-6 steps on the duration chart is a huge increase in time you do that two or three times and the spell will now last years. repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.

[devonapple]

repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.

But not infinite free tags, of course. The RAW are pretty clear that one Aspect = one free tag, even in Thaumaturgy, even with Thaumaturgy durations (though you are right about having Thaumaturgy durations apply to Sponsored Magic Evocations).

YS 265: "If the intent is to create a temporary aspect that can be tagged more than once (remember that normally you’d only get the benefit of the tag once and have to invoke after that), simply chain two or more maneuvers together in the same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a similar variant. In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above). As wizards are usually low on fate points, this option allows you a little more mileage without having to worry about impacting your fate point budget."

[Moriden]

But not infinite free tags, of course. The RAW are pretty clear that one Aspect = one free tag, even in Thaumaturgy, even with Thaumaturgy durations (though you are right about having Thaumaturgy durations apply to Sponsored Magic Evocations).

You are correct and that quote is one of the ones I'm referencing. what the character would be doing is using a complexity 6 spell to get 2 free tags, as your quote lists in the example

In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above).

and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.

[devonapple]

You are correct and that quote is one of the ones I'm referencing. what the character would be doing is using a complexity 6 spell to get 2 free tags, as your quote lists in the example  and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.

Oh, dear, I think I follow you now... how hard would that be to Counterspell?

[BumblingBear]

Apologies if this was already brought up.

Okay so say you have summer magic. you get Biomancy at evocation speeds. you cast a rote Biomantic self alteration, so its not a violation of the laws. for 6 shifts you can get two taggable aspects. duration like one round, so who cares right,? its a little better then just naval gazing but not much. Heres the thing that nearly any dm wont let you do but is what makes this situation absurd, and I'm fairly certain is RAW valid. You use the time duration chart from thaumaturgy while using the evocation ability to be boosted by further spells. so you wakeup cast your buff , and then cast your second rote of extend the first spell. Moveing 5-6 steps on the duration chart is a huge increase in time you do that two or three times and the spell will now last years. repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.

If I didn't do this more than twice, I think my GM would probably allow it.

My character is sufficiently paranoid this would be thematically appropriate too.

Wow.  That's a pretty cool idea. I did not even think of that.  Going into social encounters I could cast several free tags on myself to use etc.

[Moriden]

where a st to allow it... well that depends on how you want to do the math. theoretically its a bunch of 6 shift spells boosted lets say 12 for duration. which means its either a 6/12/18 shift spell, and you've got like 40 of them up. dispelling one even if you can wont serve much purpose, unless you don't do it right and you cause the spell to backlash. the player will just tag as many of them as he needs to survive the backlash though, so thats really not a win for you.

[jybil178]

Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..

[Drachasor]

and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.

It's as broken as heck.  Personally as a GM I'd say you can have ONE magical effect that gives you taggable maneuvers on you at a time.  Otherwise it is insane.  Of course, RAW, you can stack them to insanity and beyond.

Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..

They are talking about casting the same spell over and over and over to give them X taggable aspects each time.  Do that a dozen times and you have a huge number of tags you can invoke at once or at any time during that day.  Crazy-broken, but legal.

[devonapple]

Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..

Not adding things, technically - simply casting the spell over and over. Simply a repeat of the same Aspect-granting Thaumaturgical Maneuver, re-cast whenever the spellcaster's stress tracks clear out. The question is: how many such enchantments/buffs would a GM allow at a time on one target.

[BumblingBear]

As long as a player does not try to munchkin out, I don't see a reason why it would be necessary to make house rules on this.

I plan on trying this in my next gaming session for 1 set of two taggable aspects for social engagements and 1 set of two taggable aspects for combat.

I can cast those two spells, then use my last two mental stress in that scene to extend them both.

I don't see this as broken, because if the GM really wanted to, he could throw a petty thug or two at me after having done this in a scene and I'd have to take consequences just to defend myself.