My Group Hates the System

[chrislackey]

I just got done running The Dresden Files for my group here in Leeds, UK. The game itself, went well. They liked the story and their characters, however the didn't like the mechanics. And seeing them in play, they left a lot to be desired from my stand point. Maybe I was doing something wrong or just not understanding. So here are my main issues and maybe you can point out some things I can do to make this game go smoother.

1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.

2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.

3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.

4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.

I'm really not trying to start a flame or anything, I just want to try and save this system for my group. they want to ditch it and go with something like primetime adventures or wordplaly. I feel kinda bad thinking I dropped almost $100 bucks for a game I'm gonna play 3 times. Ugh.

[KOFFEYKID]

I can see how to fix #1 right now: It is not your responsibility to compel the players every time.

What I mean to say is, the players themselves should be coming up with allot of the compels, I think (and this is a guess) that their aspects are a bit too one sided. Aspects, when used correctly, are like double edged blades. Ideally they each have an upside and a downside. If all of the aspects are mainly beneficial, barring the trouble aspect, its going to be difficult to offer them compels. Talk to your players about this, and see if they can redesign their aspects.

For example, consider the aspect "Obscenely Powerful Magic", how are you going to compel that? Well, I suppose you could compel it for effects that are more powerful than the player wanted, but isn't something like "Magical Thug" even better? It gets across the brute force idea from the first aspect, but it aslo has an implication of unsophisticated magic. That offers more ways to compel it.

If at least 4 of the 7 have downsides you should be able to get fate points pretty easily, I've seen players picking up 2 or 3 fate points per scene, or around six a session in less charitable games.

As for #2, remember that your players can use maneuvers to place aspects, and when they do so they get a free tag on the aspect. Maybe instead of hiding behind the crate they knock them over into a more advantageous arrangement to hide, they put the aspect "Tumbled Crates" down and can tag it for free. Takes a bit longer to setup, but when you are shy of fate points, it does the job if a bit later.

For #3, the Evocation Magic system is actually pretty simple, It has three steps, decide what you want to do, call up the power, and roll to control it. Sort of like, drawing a gun, loading it and firing it. The complication comes from when you dont understand the rules for it as well (this isn't a slight on your part, just invest some more time in learning it).

For #4, This hasn't been a problem for us but I'd recommend getting some index cards with all the powers on them.

[UmbraLux]

1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.

Remind them to self-compel.  Off load some of the responsibility.    Also, don't forget playing their character's flaws can often be seen as a self compel.  When Bob tries to rescue a bystander, is it a random act or a self compel of some 'heroic' aspect?  

2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.

First, my version of the official reasoning - you're simulating a scene in constant motion.  He rolled behind cover in one exchange and kept rolling (or his opponent moves to negate it) by default (unless there's another fate point spent).  It's a system that, in my opinion, actually works better if you leave combat abstract and don't map it.  Finally, don't forget the free tag on maneuvers.

For an alternative, you might look at Strands of Fate.  It uses a sticky aspect concept which allows free tags of an aspect across multiple exchanges.  Sticky aspects are more difficult to create but it makes sense to me.

3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.

This, in my opinion, is caused by the overly verbose writing style used.  I rewrote the evocation rules to fit on a one page pdf.  Thaumaturgy takes a second page.  

4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.

I suspect this will go away with familiarity but it is worth a short sentence / reminder on your villain's sheet.

Edit:  There's also a two sheet powers reference downloadable from Evil Hat.  There's also a short 'reminder' version of the spellcasting rules.

[danthehut]

I admit the magic rules are a bit complicated. I'm still trying to get my heard around them before running my first live gaming session in dfrpg.

@umbralux: Could you post your one sheet of the magic rules? That might be helpful.

[Kommisar]

I've had some push back from my players as well.  They are all hardened GURPs players (2 have played GURPS for around 20 years!) and have had a LOT of trouble getting their minds wrapped around this system.  But, as I am the one that always runs the games for this group over the last ten years, I just told them that if they didn't want to play FATE that one of them could run a game.  So, we're still playing FATE.  LOL

Maneuvers, maneuvers, maneuvers.  I had to ram this through my players heads.  I did it by having some NPC thugs beat the crap out of them in a fight.  When I had 5 vanilla Ukrainian mobsters drop the hammer on 5 Submerged level wizards; they started paying attention.  Well, at first they got all upset and claimed the system was broken since that could happen.  Then I simply pointed out that perhaps they would have more luck if they actually USED the system.  We then sat down and I took them through how the mobsters did what they did and, finally, Maneuvers clicked.

Now, they whore maneuvers like they use to whore combat modifiers from the hundreds of GURPS tables.

Once they get Maneuvers down, you can move on, like I am tonight, onto declarations and assessments.

The other trick I used was when my main, still unknown, behind the scenes, villains struck at the players through proxies.  I had the party ambushed while they were separated.  In my case, in pairs.  I then handed the other players NPC sheets and let them play the bad guys.  In my set up, one pair of players was jumped by giant spider constructs, another by some cheap ghouls, and the final pair by some zombies.

I got really good feedback from my players on this and they all said that they came away from that session with a much better understanding of the rules and system.  I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they all have wizards as characters and that playing the thug-monsters here gave them something much more simple to try out without getting lost in throwing spells around.

[TheMouse]

1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.

Players who want lots of fate points need to use their Aspects to get themselves into trouble. Responsibility for Compels is as much in a player's hands as it is in yours.

You also have the option of calling for a Refresh when significant time passes. It's totally okay to say, "Okay, guys. Since like two days pass, you can all go up to your Refresh rating in fate points if you're below that."

2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.

There's nothing stopping you from adjusting difficulties without using Aspects. There's a little bit of guidance about doing so on pages 311 and 312. You are well within your rights to say, "So you're taking a full defense action and ducking behind those crates. Okay, in addition to the normal +2 for full defense, take another +1 because of cover."

3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.

You're allowing verbosity to obscure the magic system. It's actually not terribly complicated. Look at the rules summary on those yellow pages in the back of the book, next to the character sheets. It summarizes the basics in a few short lines.

4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.

As with any system, you're going to learn the stuff that you use. It's like Feats in D&D or Disciplines in Vampire. Keep little note cards with what stuff does until you remember it.

[Saedar]

As pointed out, Fate points can be accumulated fairly easily. For some good examples, I've been following the "Forced to Fight" PBP game here on the boards, kind of lurking. They are frequently compelling aspects for points and then turning right around and using them again.

Part of the drawback to playing a fully loaded wizard is that FPs are going to be a little low, compared to other lower refresh characters.

As for the spellcasting rules, I've found that it is best to encourage people to not play spellcasters the first time around unless they want to sit down and learn the magic system. It is pretty flexible and can be daunting if you are unfamiliar with it. That said, once you do get it, it should flow pretty well.

[UmbraLux]

@umbralux: Could you post your one sheet of the magic rules? That might be helpful.

It's a condensed version of copyrighted material, so I can't legally distribute it.  I'll give it to Evil Hat if they'd like to publish it, but that's up to them.  It's something anyone with the book and some time could duplicate though - I did it to understand the system better.

[sinker]

There's a lot of great advice here! I would really speak with your players about self-compels. Remind them that as a GM you are paying attention to all of their characters in addition to many other things. The best way for them to get fate points is to take the initiative themselves.

As for the magic system one of the ways to simplify is to really encourage the use of rote spells. Help your wizard(s) lock those down and then in the heat of things it is much easier. You just roll discipline to hit, that's it. Creating rotes should also help you (and your wizards) to understand the system better.

[devonapple]

It's a condensed version of copyrighted material, so I can't legally distribute it.  I'll give it to Evil Hat if they'd like to publish it, but that's up to them.  It's something anyone with the book and some time could duplicate though - I did it to understand the system better.

They have a Fan-Created Resources page:
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/downloads/

Emailing it to Fred Hicks would mean it could go up on that page.

[arete]

I have 2 player that feel the system is annoying.  One of them is a wizard, and consistently says that mage has a better magic system.  He also does not like some of the basic rules of fate like the lack of mechanical differences, which related to his preference to the mage system.  This is largely due to the limits that are placed on the magic system. 

My second player feels that his character is way weaker than the other players.  He is playing a physical character in a group of wizards.  I have not figured out how to prove that having all 4 physical stats is just as good as evoc.

 However I have noticed that Fate seems crunch light, but in reality is just as complex as most of the other systems I have.  It is very important to make sure everyone understands the system.  The other thing you can do is lay fate over another system.  My player that prefers mage did a fate overlay on mage and it works wonderfully.  I also recommend Strands of Fate.  It has some great ideas, and is designed to be a swiss army knife of options.

[BumblingBear]

My second player feels that his character is way weaker than the other players.  He is playing a physical character in a group of wizards.  I have not figured out how to prove that having all 4 physical stats is just as good as evoc.

 

If he's not a supernatural strength character and doesn't have a Sword of the Cross or similar, what does he expect?

Plus, grapples if done properly are pretty nasty.  Some wizards simply won't be able to get out of a good grapple unless they spend a buttload of fate points.

There are pros and cons to everything.  Wizards dish damage but can only do it so many times.  A thug with a gun can lay down fire until his bullets run out... which may take a while.

[Sanctaphrax]

A character with physical powers is vastly more durable and has far better initiative than a wizard.

So if you want to make him feel useful, you can put in some enemies that can take out wizards before they even get to act. A seven-shift evoker with Inhuman Speed, for example. The physical guy can survive a big evocation or beat the enemy's initiative, while the wizards will have to use fate points and consequences just to have a chance.

Note: this is pretty terrible from the wizards' point of view. So don't do it very often.

[toturi]

1) As others have pointed out, your players can self-compel for Fate points (p103 YS) and as a GM you can allow a refresh to occur midsession (p21, p317 YS).

2) There is a difference between tagging and invoking an Aspect. Tagging (p106 YS) is free. So your player could "Dive for cover" and tag that Aspect.

[schpat]

I've just run the "Neutral Grounds" casefile for my group because our usual GM couldn't make it for a couple of weeks.  When I say run I'm actually still running it, I've managed to split it over 2 sessions.

The FATE system is so different from what we are used to that I'm not surprised that some players could have trouble conceptualising how it works.  The thing that makes it really stand out for me are the Declarations, they take a lot of the pressure off the GM. The system is so much more collaborative than we were used to.  In the first couple of scenes I had to really encourage the players by asking them what was going on, by the end of the night they were telling me. It's a great feeling.

The point here is that unlike traditional RPG you don't have a GM setting a bunch of problems that the players have to overcome using the resources available to their characters.  In FATE the GM and the players are working together to tell a story that everyone will enjoy.  Once the group grasps that then it doesn't matter that a physical character is outclassed by the wizards in combat, as long as everyone enjoys the story.  The character's aspects should drive the story, not just help them beat up the bad guys.