Author Topic: example of buffs and potions from your games.  (Read 7636 times)

Offline devonapple

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2165
  • Parkour to YOU!
    • View Profile
    • LiveJournal Account
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2011, 06:31:04 AM »
They actually don't talk, in thaumaturgy, about navel-gazing maneuvers. That section is explicitly talking about putting things on other people.

Actually, a preceding paragraph in that section does talk about Maneuvers (YS 264) applied to environments, not just unwilling targets:
"...the complexity depends on whether or not it’s affecting an environment or a sentient target. With an environment, it’s much the same as a simple action—the base difficulty equals the complexity. With a target, it varies, because it’s a matter of beating whichever skill the target would use to “defend” against the spell."

So, they don't mention navel-gazing maneuvers by name, but Thaumaturgical Maneuvers can be Simple Actions - they aren't obligated to be resisted by a target, just that they are likely to be by an unwilling target, and so a spellcaster needs to be prepared for it.

The thing is, with that example, someone not resisting the effect doesn't need to have their conviction overcome, they just let themselves get hit, so a 1 shift maneuver would work on them (potentially a 0-shift, but that's super-cheating).  This may seem like a pedantic point to you, but it is the case the rules really don't go over this well...you have to sort of slap different parts of them together (it does fit together well enough).

No need to worry about being pedantic. It's understandable that some amount of debate will be required to test these things in the Crucible of Community Conference!

But I got the impression early on that NGMs needed to at least be 3 shifts to succeed.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 06:35:57 AM by devonapple »
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Drachasor

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 871
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2011, 06:45:59 AM »
But I got the impression early on that NGMs needed to at least be 3 shifts to succeed.

That's true for Evocation NGMs (the only place where a particular price is stated).  For any other type nothing at all is stated in the rules.  I agree 3 seems like a good number for magical effects (seems about balanced when you consider enchanted items to me...not too weak, not too strong).  Just saying that there really aren't any rules on it for thaumaturgy.

For navel-gazing in general, the rules say this about difficulty:
Quote
This shouldn’t really be an issue most of the time—an unopposed maneuver roll is pretty easy anyway, and keep in mind that another character in the scene might be in a position to “defend” against the maneuver attempt or take advantage of the aspect somehow.

That is, "don't worry about it!"  Not helpful, eh?

Anyhow, to be clear, my position is "The rules don't say anything for NGM and thaumaturgy, but 3 shifts of power seems about right and is consistent with evocation (and consistency is good)."

As for environments and such, I think the GM would rule it depending on what you are trying to do (you could say the same for NGM, but I don't think this is that big of a deal, considering there are tons of ones you could do, and since you take NGMs with you, a minimum DC seems right).  Trying to make a place made of wood be on fire should be a lot easier than one made of stone, for instance.

Offline devonapple

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2165
  • Parkour to YOU!
    • View Profile
    • LiveJournal Account
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2011, 06:54:46 AM »
That's true for Evocation NGMs (the only place where a particular price is stated). 

To be superduperduper pedantic ::straightens tie:: the Evocation section doesn't mention NGMs by name, either - just Maneuvers. But that's merely academic - I think we're basically in accord!  8)
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Drachasor

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 871
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2011, 07:13:22 AM »
To be superduperduper pedantic ::straightens tie:: the Evocation section doesn't mention NGMs by name, either - just Maneuvers. But that's merely academic - I think we're basically in accord!  8)

Excellent point.  It does appear we are in agreement, as you say.  Now to figure out the best way to balance buffs.

Offline devonapple

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2165
  • Parkour to YOU!
    • View Profile
    • LiveJournal Account
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2011, 07:24:20 AM »
I just remembered something Lea did in this about-to-be-spoiler-tagged scene:
(click to show/hide)

So, did she use Evocation-fast Thaumaturgy to create temporary Enchanted Items for them?
Or did she use Evocation-fast Thaumaturgy to simply cast higher-powered Block-used-as-Armor spells that would last the whole battle?
Or did she just use Sponsored Magic to make an Evocation Block/Armor, but then gave it a Thaumaturgy-level duration?
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Amseriah

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2011, 07:41:22 AM »
Another spell that she pulled off that I have no idea how she did it, was when she: 
(click to show/hide)

She did it at evocation speed for sure, but that would take a LOT of shifts to pull off.

Offline BumblingBear

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2123
  • Rawr.
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2011, 07:50:10 AM »
Another spell that she pulled off that I have no idea how she did it, was when she: 
(click to show/hide)

She did it at evocation speed for sure, but that would take a LOT of shifts to pull off.

She's also ridiculously powerful and was working towards the goals of her mistress.

It's also nice she doesn't have to worry about lawbreaking.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Drachasor

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 871
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2011, 08:02:24 AM »
I just remembered something Lea did in this about-to-be-spoiler-tagged scene:
(click to show/hide)

So, did she use Evocation-fast Thaumaturgy to create temporary Enchanted Items for them?
Or did she use Evocation-fast Thaumaturgy to simply cast higher-powered Block-used-as-Armor spells that would last the whole battle?
Or did she just use Sponsored Magic to make an Evocation Block/Armor, but then gave it a Thaumaturgy-level duration?

In game mechanics?  She did the third, as Armor, last until Sunrise, and it took the form of clothes (I think that's allowable as flavor).

Offline arete

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 107
  • Kitchen GM
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2011, 08:17:53 AM »
I would assume she had as much time as she needed to create the armor buff, and the buffs mentioned earlier could fit that bill easily.  Maybe add more successes needed, but sense you are not rolling unless it is important it is less important.   However She appears to be able to cast
(click to show/hide)
at evocation speeds, which was another buff to speed.  I think we should decide if she gave refresh based powers or just added to athletics. 
Posting from a cell phone excuss my typoes

Offline UmbraLux

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1685
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2011, 01:53:01 PM »
It seems odd to handle biomancy with such a limited scope of mechanic.  After all it says you can do other things, and players are going to want to do other things.  I  did not think it was outside of the rules to get refresh based powers, and other options.  After playing with it I understand why refresh based powers are bad, but i think it would be a good idea to have more mechanical options outside of aspects.
There are other options - I was just throwing out one easy example.  A way for a wizard to easily help a friend if you will.  Buff could also be described as blocks (mostly defensive buffs but others may fit) and full blown thaumaturgy can do almost anything. 

Just remember, long term 'buffs' generally need to be paid for with either fate points (temporary) or refresh (permanent).  It's part of the game's / books' central theme - power has a cost and part of the cost is free will.
--
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.”  - Albert Einstein

"Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength."  - Eric Hoffer

Offline Moriden

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: example of buffs and potions from your games.
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 04:30:52 PM »
Quote
Another spell that she pulled off that I have no idea how she did it, was when she:  Turned Harry and Co. into hounds so that they could make it to the RCV on time.

She did it at evocation speed for sure, but that would take a LOT of shifts to pull off.

Appropriately created aspects can in fact be tagged instead of using fate points. i can find the quote if necessary.



As to the effect she used to buff peoples speed she could have given them all a "block" on athletic of sufficiently high with sufficiently long duration. She could have spent about a dozen fate points to give them all supernatural speed [4 shifts of complexity and four fate points each]. or she could have simply given them all the maneuver "moving really fast" i believe its in the spirit of the rules that maneuver can be used for more then just mechanical affects i personally find it clunky and inefficient but it does seem to be the most popular to handle such spells.
Brian Blacknight