Breath Weapons

[Drachasor]

Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)

There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.

Eh, if you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden and the GM often throws combat at you there, then he's really being kind of a jerk (for most groups).  That strongly favors wizards, things with claws, and so forth, and strongly disfavors pure mortals (generally speaking).  Well, guys with strength or great might will be ok, as they can use most anything as a weapon, as I understand the rules (pick up a chair, metal bar, whatever).

Really all that a Breath Weapon REALLY does is essentially let you be really, really good at hiding your weapon in most circumstances (though things familiar with you will still be able to bind you so you can't use it).  Ammo, in most cases, doesn't matter that much, even if we are talking about knives and such.  Now, it IS an upgrade for damage for people without inhuman strength, but it inhuman strength costs as much and is a bigger upgrade and upgrades other things.  How much is it worth to be able to hide things?  0 Refresh, as Human Form shows (e.g. it's just an opposed roll in any case).  So truly the benefit is very, very small, and AGAIN it is no benefit at all to anyone with any sort of strength power.

Breath Weapon is worth 1 refresh at most.  Compare it to claws.
Range: 1 zone away vs. same zone.
Skill:  Weapons vs. Fists (this is a huge improvement for fists, which have a number of pretty handy stunts, actually, whereas BW is little to no improvement for weapons).

Both do one thing kind of nice.  BW gives you a bigger range than melee (though no better than any other thrown weapon) and Claws tremendously improve fist attacks (in a way that competes with the stunt for fists that let you use fists for any weapon).  They both have unlimited ammo and are harder to get removed from your person in a small number of circumstances.  Overall, they compare pretty evenly to each other, and their value primarily depends on whether you want to be using fists or weapons to attack (if you were trying to choose between one or the other) -- naturally breath weapon allows ranged attacks, but WEAPONS already allows that and fists don't, so the difference between fists and BW is rather small there.

[Ala Alba]

I don't really want to get into an argument with someone who seems to have made up his mind already, but I think that you're underestimating the value of having a possibly non-physical damage causing weapon.

If a character can breathe flame, then not only do they have a self-generating thrown weapon: 2, basically a hand gun that they can never lose, but they can also use it to do anything that fire can, such as satisfy catches, create light, set something on fire, etc. Also, it's actually really difficult to stop someone from breathing if you still want them alive, obviously. Even if forced into a muzzle that completely stops them from opening their mouth... why wouldn't they be able to snort flames?

[Drachasor]

I don't really want to get into an argument with someone who seems to have made up his mind already, but I think that you're underestimating the value of having a possibly non-physical damage causing weapon.

I'm just saying 2 refresh is something that is quite expensive.  Compared to other 2 refresh powers, BW doesn't seem to compare well.

If a character can breathe flame, then not only do they have a self-generating thrown weapon: 2, basically a hand gun that they can never lose, but they can also use it to do anything that fire can, such as satisfy catches, create light, set something on fire, etc. Also, it's actually really difficult to stop someone from breathing if you still want them alive, obviously. Even if forced into a muzzle that completely stops them from opening their mouth... why wouldn't they be able to snort flames?

 It can equally NOT satisfy catches that a gun could satisfy (in fact, a gun can satisfy multiple types of catches if you have the proper ammo).  A Breath Weapon is a part of you that is inflexible in how it can be used since it is stuck as one element.  And using fire breath to brighten a room would tend to end in a building on fire, I'd think.  And there are plenty of ways to handle a breath weapon.  If a muzzle doesn't work (and in a lot of cases, I think it would), you can simply place them in a stone or similar room, tied up, turned to a wall.  Against anyone who knew of the breath weapon, if they captured you then part of the concession would be neutralizing that weapon (better than being dead).

Anyhow, I'm not saying it isn't useful, I'm just saying it is worse than anything else that requires 2 refresh, and it is about comparable to something that requires 1.

[Sanctaphrax]

Couple things I disagree with you about, Drachasor.

First, a GM isn't necessarily a jerk for putting the players at a disadvantage. If the players know about and are fine with it beforehand, there's no problem.

Second, the fact that Breath Weapon is linked to Weapons while Claws is linked to fists is not a disadvantage.

That being said, I think Breath Weapon is a little weak. In most games, it won't be worth it mechanically.

[sinker]

One of the things that nobody is mentioning is that the breath weapon (if thematically appropriate) has a much wider variety of tactical options than claws and almost as many as strength. Using fire breath as an example one could create a zone border, as a block, or create a whole slew of different environmental aspects (There's the obvious "the room's on fire" but more subtly, one could Melt pipes for "spray of water",  or unevenly heat the ground to cause it to crack for "uneven footing"). For that matter, since most people are afraid of heat one could maneuver socially or inflict behavioral aspects on a person within physical conflict. These aspects could be much more subtle than any physical force and as such, in social conflict one could use it to embarrass or endear (instead of just frightening like most physical forces).

I'm not sure if this is actually worth the additional refresh as it's only a little bit more flexible, but maybe with all of the other advantages (range, concealment)? I don't know, but I do know that it seems much better than claws (I.E. more than 1 refresh).

[Drachasor]

One of the things that nobody is mentioning is that the breath weapon (if thematically appropriate) has a much wider variety of tactical options than claws and almost as many as strength. Using fire breath as an example one could create a zone border, as a block, or create a whole slew of different environmental aspects (There's the obvious "the room's on fire" but more subtly, one could Melt pipes for "spray of water",  or unevenly heat the ground to cause it to crack for "uneven footing"). For that matter, since most people are afraid of heat one could maneuver socially or inflict behavioral aspects on a person within physical conflict. These aspects could be much more subtle than any physical force and as such, in social conflict one could use it to embarrass or endear (instead of just frightening like most physical forces).

I'm not sure if this is actually worth the additional refresh as it's only a little bit more flexible, but maybe with all of the other advantages (range, concealment)? I don't know, but I do know that it seems much better than claws (I.E. more than 1 refresh).

I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like.  Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border.  Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.

One can claw pipes open to have "spray of water", shoot a gasket in them for the same effect, and any number of other things -- assuming you can even melt them with a breath weapon, that metal is going to be pretty tough (but we'll assume that's doable).  You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like.  One can set up blocks with guns, claws, or the like as well.  A breath weapon is different, but not tremendously more flexible.

[sinker]

I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like.  Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border.

A zone border being the equivilant of offensive block armor against movement I could see it being reasonable, however it's true, it's not RAW.

Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.

The one thing I brought up that you didn't refute is the subtlety in a breath weapon. Sure you can invoke fear in others with guns or violence, but can you startle them with a small fire that (if done cleverly) can't be linked to you? Can you embarrass them by subtly burning bits of their clothes? Can you endear others to you by performing tricks or providing a convenient light (of note on the topic of light I'm assuming that one would use a small fire to light something flammable as opposed to breathing a big ball of flame for light)?

You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like.

This I don't like thematically as bullets are designed to punch through things rather than stress them, but that's a personal opinion.

[BumblingBear]

I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like.  Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border.  Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.

One can claw pipes open to have "spray of water", shoot a gasket in them for the same effect, and any number of other things -- assuming you can even melt them with a breath weapon, that metal is going to be pretty tough (but we'll assume that's doable).  You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like.  One can set up blocks with guns, claws, or the like as well.  A breath weapon is different, but not tremendously more flexible.

I don't understand why you are trolling about this.

We get your point.  I promise.  To some extent we agree with it that 2 refresh is kind of a high cost.  I'm sure it was meant to be equivalent to claws.

However, arguing here over and over again is just beating the dead horse and it's not going to magically change the RAW.  I'm not being an apologist for the RAW, just pointing out the futility of regurgitating the same argument over and over and over again.

Hanging on to whatever negative emotions you have for this power won't help anything.  If you don't like it, you're free to either GM a campaign and make it cost 1 refresh, or petition your GM for the power to cost 1 refresh.

Those are your realistic options.  Perpetually posting about your frustration with the power does not accomplish anything.

[Drachasor]

I don't understand why you are trolling about this.

Discussing and trolling aren't the same.  I have reasons for my opinion and I am open to counter-arguments.  The latter so far have been pretty weak, which I guess is why you are telling me I should just drop my point.  If you don't want to participate in a discussion about the rules and whether a particular one is right or not, that's fine and your choice.  I don't have to follow your personal preference, however.

A zone border being the equivilant of offensive block armor against movement I could see it being reasonable, however it's true, it's not RAW.

If it allowed such things, then I'd say it was worth it.  Remember, it would have to allow it for any sort of breath weapon, whether mucus, lightning, acid, or whatever.

The one thing I brought up that you didn't refute is the subtlety in a breath weapon. Sure you can invoke fear in others with guns or violence, but can you startle them with a small fire that (if done cleverly) can't be linked to you? Can you embarrass them by subtly burning bits of their clothes? Can you endear others to you by performing tricks or providing a convenient light (of note on the topic of light I'm assuming that one would use a small fire to light something flammable as opposed to breathing a big ball of flame for light)?

I don't see how it couldn't be linked to you, unless they weren't paying attention.  The fire or whatever comes from your body.  They'd literally have to not be paying any attention to you to not notice fire coming out of you.  Also, you arguments seem very much about fire breath, but Breath Weapon covers anything.  As for tricks, you can do that with guns or any number of other skills easily enough.  Heck, you can do that just with weapons without spending any refresh.  I grant Breath Weapon opens up some maneuvers here and there (that you can do instead of other maneuvers you might instead do), but that sort of thing isn't worth a whole refresh on its own, anymore than having claws you can hide (via human guise) is worth an 2 refresh since you can do maneuvers with it.

As for the size of a fire to start something, doesn't make much of a difference in many situations whether you use a match, breath weapon, incendiary, or magic.

This I don't like thematically as bullets are designed to punch through things rather than stress them, but that's a personal opinion.

I meant you are putting down a spray of bullets kind of like covering fire...they have to watch where they step so they don't get shot.


Anyhow, yes, like any sort of weapon, Breath Weapon opens itself up to some maneuvers (so does Strength for that matter).  But comparing Breath Weapon to a Strength upgrade it comes up way short.  Comparing it to Claws and they seem pretty similar in power (Breath Weapon might have a small lead, but not a very big one).  Overall I think that firmly plants it as a -1 refresh power and hence it is pretty darn expensive.  Back to the point of the thread, there's no reason not to allow them to benefit from strength since it is such a weak power (for the cost) to begin with -- doing this keeps Breath Weapon relevant to people with strength powers.

[sinker]

I don't understand why you are trolling about this.

This was a bit uncalled for bear. We are simply discussing, there has been no ill will.

Discussing and trolling aren't the same.  I have reasons for my opinion and I am open to counter-arguments.  The latter so far have been pretty weak, which I guess is why you are telling me I should just drop my point.

Also a little harsh. I understand if you don't agree with my points but I think at the very least they have been well made.

I've realized something about the core of this argument. You seem to believe that breath weapon is limited in use and as such believe that it's cost should be reduced. I think we can all agree that it's a bit limited, however I believe that the better way to deal with that is by increasing it's use. To be honest I don't like the idea of reducing it's cost, because at 1 refresh there is then no cost difference between claws and breath weapon and then there's no good reason not to take the one that has range and the ability to be hidden, so it reduces the usefulness of claws (which is fairly useful and totally worth a single refresh IMO). So what it comes down to is would you rather reduce the usefulness of other things or increase the usefulness of breath weapon?

[devonapple]

Ultimately, the issue is one of system granularity. Claws (-1 Refresh) are demonstrably more useful than having bare fists (0 Refresh), and Breath Weapon is demonstrably more useful than Claws because of range, in every game system there has ever been, but another Refresh is quite an investment. One I think is sufficient, but some compelling examples have shown that it is easily exceeded by a particular character build and a rather strange but effective choice of weapon.

So perhaps having the Strength Boost to Breath Weapon power - well not justifiable in some cases - is not so game-breaking, in light of the discussion. I'll be happy to drop Juggling as a counter-example. And if a GM is able to reward a Breath Weapon with other advantages in exchange for denying it the Strength bonus, alright. I like the idea of setting up Zone Borders.

[Drachasor]

Also a little harsh. I understand if you don't agree with my points but I think at the very least they have been well made.

My apologies.

I've realized something about the core of this argument. You seem to believe that breath weapon is limited in use and as such believe that it's cost should be reduced. I think we can all agree that it's a bit limited, however I believe that the better way to deal with that is by increasing it's use. To be honest I don't like the idea of reducing it's cost, because at 1 refresh there is then no cost difference between claws and breath weapon and then there's no good reason not to take the one that has range and the ability to be hidden, so it reduces the usefulness of claws (which is fairly useful and totally worth a single refresh IMO). So what it comes down to is would you rather reduce the usefulness of other things or increase the usefulness of breath weapon?

You'd take claws to use with fists, but I agree BW would have an advantage there (just not a 1 refresh advantage) -- though I think as written BW doesn't scale with strength (Claws mentions it explicitly, and not everything that uses weapons scales with strength such as grenades), so there's an advantage to fists there.  Hmm, bit tricky to decide how to scale it up.  I think there are 3 possible ways.

1.  Scales with Strength Powers (this only affects people who take strength powers though, so insufficient on its own).
2.  Allows Spray Attacks
3.  Allows creation of zone borders.

Perhaps all 3, but Spray Attacks and/or zone borders have a cost (perhaps a mental stress?)

[devonapple]

2.  Allows Spray Attacks

I don't know that a Spray Attack with a Breath Weapon is *impossible* in the RAW: YS 326 says "Some weapons have the ability to affect multiple targets in one attack, either because they have full-auto firing capabilities (military SMGs and assault rifles) or because there’s some kind of consistency or spread in the shape of the attack (flamethrowers or shotguns)." This could be debated, though.

[sinker]

I was just going to say I think technically they can already do spray attacks, as the only thing the RAW requires for them is thematic justification.

[Drachasor]

I don't know that a Spray Attack with a Breath Weapon is *impossible* in the RAW: YS 326 says "Some weapons have the ability to affect multiple targets in one attack, either because they have full-auto firing capabilities (military SMGs and assault rifles) or because there’s some kind of consistency or spread in the shape of the attack (flamethrowers or shotguns)." This could be debated, though.

As a thrown weapon, this doesn't seem to make sense.  BW is clearly written, imho, as shooting out a little projectile of some sort (my read anyhow), but I guess it is up to the GM.  If it allowed such attacks, it should say it explicitly, imho.