Grendel - Suggestions & Advice Please

[My Dark Sunshine]

Okay. First of all I'll set the scene a little. In the campaign I am running/will be running (only had one quick starter/test session, & more people are likely to join in the next) the main Threat is 'Faery On The Ley-Line'. This Faery is head of a major corporation which happens to have its Company HQ Tower built on-top of the Cities Ley-line.

She is of the Winter Court and intends to use the power of the Ley-line to bring back Grendel, believing he (it?) would accept her as his (its?) new Mother. Depending on whether or not the players can deal with the threat before it escalates, or if they fail and it escalates, I may indeed need to bring in stats for Grendel.

Now I am someone who has been completely unimpressed by almost every single interpretation of Grendel I have ever seen in any of the movies &/or most other appearances. In fact, sad to say the 'best' (subjective term) two depictions have been 'Star Trek Voyager', in a Holigram program in one of the episodes, & the enemy in the movie 'Outlander'. Although I'd rather Grendel be more humanoid as based upon the Original Epic Poem.

My problem with most the versions of him are they are brutish, unintelligent and generally lacking a fear factor -bearing in mind this creature scared a warrior culture, taking out entire groups of Soldiers with ease. In fact, Grendel was all but unstoppable until Beowulf appeared. For this reason I like the fact Grendelkin come with 'Cloak Of Shadows' and 'Glamours'.

So, I guess there are various things I'd like feedback on!

1) What is Grendel? The Grendelkin are his Scions, but as far as I am aware there is no predetermined concept of what Grendel was. Which is awesome, leaves lots of room to deal with. From the original poem-epic I believe he was the 'Descendant of Kain' (the biblical Kain); but this is rather vague. Is he a demon? Or what? I could even concieve of Grendel being an outsider, but what are your opinions?

2a) Considering Grendelkin are -18 Refresh, how powerful would you think fair for the original? It would be easy to make him insanely powerful, but he still needs to be defeat-able. I could easily just upgrade the Grendelkin a bit, perhaps making the Physical Immunity affect everything but something specific; something relating to Beowulf.
 
2b) If you think more variation is needed, what sort've powers would you think fit Grendel?

3) Anything else you care to add!

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[Edit:] I probably should've mentioned that the party currently consists of a Mortal Clued-In P.I & A Sorcerer who charades as an exorcist (may switch to True Believer, as I'm allowing some character-recreation next session when more characters are introduced - no magic was thrown around last session either way). Knowing the other players that are joining, the group will likely have added to it a Were-something / Wizard, a Vampire (probably social skills heavy) & a general combat-focused character of some-kind. They're starting at Chest-Deep, but should've gained at least more more point of refresh each by the time Grendel appears on the scene, or not.

[kihon]

However you end up making him, if you stay true to the poems -- I don't think your group could defeat him.  Certainly not at the start.  They might have a problem with one of his scions (if played properly).

You could alter it - and have his "spirit" brought up against him... and then maybe...(unlikely still, but...).

If you bring the origional -- well anything less than council level magic isn't going to do much of anything, and his immunity(ies) would be pretty incredible.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[My Dark Sunshine]

Very true kihon. Grendel would certainly be a force to be reckoned with

(click to show/hide)

(Cowl level bad-ass)

.  But in the event of his-being summoned, they would not be expected to defeat him initially- More like retreat and try to find a way through his defences. In fact, a session or two could be based around discovering how Beowulf beat him, and then attempting to replicate said feat.

Bearing in mind as far as I remember, Beowulf was mortal in the Poem and beat Grendel singe-handedly. Perhaps he was wielding an Item Of Power when he defeat Grendel, one the party must fine. A Sword Of The Cross would certainly make it possible, albeit difficult.

It doesn't have to stick strictly to the Poem, but I'd be more inclined to tilt towards that then the Movies.

I could use a Grendelkin with slight modification to the Fae's plan, as you say if played adequately they could easily take on the group.

Thank you for your feedback, I'll have to think on it.

[Sanctaphrax]

I actually have no idea what would fit Grendel. But if you give me a power level and a list of things that you want him to be good at, I can write stats. His list of competencies (judging from this thread so far, the short story Heorot, and wikipedia) seem to include:

-Fighting and killing people
-Being seriously scary
-Bestial trickery and cunning
-Countering spells

I'd say that 24-30 points worth of stunts and powers and 50 skill points with a cap of fantastic ought to do.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

[LokiTM]

Based on the legend, I suggest his catch should be that he can only be harmed through grappling.

I am thinking that this party is a long way from being ready to take the original Grendel...... of course he and his mother were both killed in the saga.
Perhaps they have truly epic recovery powers, and were able to come back much later.

[My Dark Sunshine]

I actually have no idea what would fit Grendel. But if you give me a power level and a list of things that you want him to be good at, I can write stats. His list of competencies (judging from this thread so far, the short story Heorot, and wikipedia) seem to include:

-Fighting and killing people
-Being seriously scary
-Bestial trickery and cunning
-Countering spells

I'd say that 24-30 points worth of stunts and powers and 50 skill points with a cap of fantastic ought to do.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

That would certainly seem the gist of it. If you'd care to write up his stats I'd be most grateful! If not, I can always do so myself, my only concern in doing so is I'd make him too-powerful. The DFRPG is my first FATE-based RPG I've experienced, let alone GM'ed - balancing is a finely tuned art.

24-30 points does sound very reasonable, in fact if kept at the lower end it'd be roughly similar in power level to the Loup-Garou (21), or He Who Walks Behind (30) at the higher end, both of which Harry defeated early on in his career. Yes I'm aware Harry is a rather special case, what with being the main character of a book series amongst other things, and that there were special circumstances pertaining to both examples, but still. There is hope for the group.

Based on the legend, I suggest his catch should be that he can only be harmed through grappling.

I am thinking that this party is a long way from being ready to take the original Grendel...... of course he and his mother were both killed in the saga.
Perhaps they have truly epic recovery powers, and were able to come back much later.

That is a good idea for the Catch! As you say, Grendel was beaten when Beowulf tore off his arm in a grappling contest. The recovery powers would be ironic, as Grendel died not in the fighter with Beowulf, but having made it all the way back to his cave. That is of course providing my memory between the Poem, various other literature, and movies has not been blurred.

True. The party is not supposed to take him on immediately. The Threat would not develop immediately, but slowly giving time for the group to become stronger. Although exactly how long it takes I may attribute to how successfully the group muddles up the Fae's plans, each step along the way. 

Thank you both.

[jadecourtflunky]

I think that it may not be grappling, but maybe taking him on in a show of near-insane True Bravery. For instance, grappling with a super-powerful being, when you're only a pure mortal... insane. Maybe a wizard hitting him with all the spells he has, while standing directly in front of him, knowing full well if Grendel gets him, he'll be dead. Or a swordsman rushing at him without his sword to save the other members of his group. It would have that dramatic feel to it, and make it so you don't have to be some warrior on steroids with thews the size of mountains to kill him.

[BumblingBear]

I like the true bravery idea.

That said, Beowulf wasn't an ordinary guy.  He killed a bunch of nasty monsters before ever tackling Grendel.

Either way, what I find interesting is although Grendel will have supernatural toughness of some kind and be strong fast etc.,

Grendel was defeated far before the advent of the gun.

What would be awesome is if 4 or 5 characters all armed with .50 BMG rifles just tore into him.  It's not impossible to kill most monsters without their catch, just difficult.

The group's best option would be for one of the magic users to drop a nasty block on Grendel to keep him in place and then just shoot him from a distance with BFGs.

[UmbraLux]

1) What is Grendel? The Grendelkin are his Scions, but as far as I am aware there is no predetermined concept of what Grendel was. Which is awesome, leaves lots of room to deal with. From the original poem-epic I believe he was the 'Descendant of Kain' (the biblical Kain); but this is rather vague. Is he a demon? Or what? I could even concieve of Grendel being an outsider, but what are your opinions?

What if Grendel was created via some Darkhallow-like ritual?  There could have been several throughout history though the poem's Grendel is probably the most 'successful'. 

Whether born anew, created, or resurrected, the original took time to gain power - nearly a generation if I remember the story correctly.  So you could also use a combination of time and sacrifice / murder to expand his powers.  Start a bit above the grendelkin and add a point of refresh per murder perhaps.  Better yet, require the number of murders to increase exponentially.  That puts time pressure on the PCs once they figure it out. 

[bibliophile20]

Also, again pulling from the original story, have him stalk feastal halls (restaurants) and mead halls (bars), taking the patrons one at a time.  For bonus points, have him run a bar, and grab the last patron at last call. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I've got OW open to the page with the Grendelkin's stats, and I'm thinking about how to make the real thing.

I figure Grendel deserves better Intimidation, Endurance, and Fists than his scion. Also, Grendel should probably have decent Might and a solid Deceit or Discipline with which to use Glamours. But as far as I know Grendel never used weaponry, so I'm probably going to drop Weapons entirely.

I think Grendel should have Supernatural Strength where his scion has Inhuman. He probably also deserves a set of Claws. I haven't decided yet whether any of his powers other than Strength deserve an uprade. He may also deserve a variant on Living Dead (for his not-dying and Intimidation abilities) or a dedicated (maybe custom, maybe just spellcasting) countermagic power.

Once that's sorted, he needs different Catches and some stunts. I'm thinking that his Physical Immunity could apply to magic and to anything other than True Heroism, while his Toughness and Recovery could apply to anything other than grappling. As for stunts, I figure that Berserker and a few other combat/intimidation/trickery stunts will round him out nicely. Still haven't decided how good he should be at grappling.

Thoughts?

[My Dark Sunshine]

First of all, thank you for all the responses and help, & sorry I'll cut bits out of the quotes, but I am trying to save space where necessary.

I think that it may not be grappling, but maybe taking him on in a show of near-insane True Bravery.  ........ It would have that dramatic feel to it, and make it so you don't have to be some warrior on steroids with thews the size of mountains to kill him.

Very nice idea! That is a fantastic way of doing it, and much more fitting. Also allows more freedom in how the players could deal with him, which is always good.

....... That said, Beowulf wasn't an ordinary guy.  He killed a bunch of nasty monsters before ever tackling Grendel.

Either way, what I find interesting is although Grendel will have supernatural toughness of some kind and be strong fast etc., Grendel was defeated far before the advent of the gun. What would be awesome is if 4 or 5 characters all armed with .50 BMG rifles just tore into him.  It's not impossible to kill most monsters without their catch, just difficult. ........

Very true, Beowulf was rather a special case - I could easily see it as a one-shot single player adventure for most RPG systems. As for your solution to Grendel, I think that is what 'Physical Immunity' is for! I'm rather fond of the fact in The Dresden Files it is usually smarts (some might say luck for Harry) over gun-size that wins fights with such creatures, although you're certainly right that would deal with a large portion of monsters. Saying that, if we go with the above suggested catch, a gun could indeed kill Grendel - providing the person wielding it was committing a truly brave act! Sweet.

What if Grendel was created via some Darkhallow-like ritual?  There could have been several throughout history though the poem's Grendel is probably the most 'successful'. 

Whether born anew, created, or resurrected, the original took time to gain power - nearly a generation if I remember the story correctly.  So you could also use a combination of time and sacrifice / murder to expand his powers.  Start a bit above the grendelkin and add a point of refresh per murder perhaps.  Better yet, require the number of murders to increase exponentially.  That puts time pressure on the PCs once they figure it out. 

A Darkhallow-esque ritual could indeed be the method by which Grendel is summoned; it'd certainly require a lot of power, hence using a Ley-line as the source. The idea of it happening multiple times is nice, although personally I'd probably have it as the same Grendel, simply multiple occurrences of, but that is just me. It could easily work both-ways.

Awesome. That would give Grendel a good excuse to 'back off' after the initial encounter, giving the party time to regather & try to figure out a way of dealing with this new threat. Having the number of deaths increasing to put pressure on the PCs is likewise great.

Also, again pulling from the original story, have him stalk feastal halls (restaurants) and mead halls (bars), taking the patrons one at a time.  For bonus points, have him run a bar, and grab the last patron at last call. 

Very nice addition. Would be interesting to think of how he'd adapt to the changes. Glamours would be very useful in such situations, luring people out so as not to alert the mass. Even more interesting would be if someone one (or more) of the character's cared about was taken by Grendel. The possibilities here are ... well, evil.

[Insert The Information From This Generally Very Good Post]

Thoughts?

I agree with effectively everything you said! As for the question of grappling skill, he needs to be beatable by an abnormally (yet not necessarily 'inhumanly') strong adversary (who is probably invoking aspects). This detail is more important if 'grappling' is a form of catch, but could be worked around if it isn't.

Your call on power upgrades is a good one, adding Supernatural Strength & Claws. The rest of the Grendelkins powers look about right; this would place it at 21 refresh. Although, that would be subject to change dependant on how much the Catch is worth, which would seem very little. Thus about 26 refresh.

As for stunts, anything you think fitting would be awesome. Although we don't want to make it over-kill. I'll leave that to your judgement!

Thanks to all of you again!

P.s. Sorry about the long message!
P.p.s. How does one format quotes in such a way as to allow them to be 'scrollable', thus lessening the amount of space they take up?

[Sanctaphrax]

Here's the rough draft. How's it look?

Grendel (In A Submarine)

High Concept: Grendel, Monstrous Descendent Of Kain
Other Aspects: "Killed" By Beowulf, Crowds Flinch And Tremble At My Name, Mother Dearest, Hunter Of Men, Surprisingly Non-Stupid
Skills:
Fantastic: Fists
Superb: Endurance, Intimidation
Great: Athletics, Might, Deceit
Good: Presence, Alertness, Survival
Fair: Burglary, Lore, Investigation, Discipline
Average: Conviction, Scholarship, Weapons, Performance, Empathy
Stunts:
Berserker (Fists): May choose to go berserk in combat, attacking until death. When berserk, all attacks are at +1 to hit and inflict +1 stress, but all defences are at -1.
Terrifying Presence (Intimidation): May use Intimidation for social defense.
Cunning Hunter (Deceit): +2 to Deceit when using it to hunt.
Powers:
Hulking Size [-2]
Cloak Of Shadows [-1]
Glamours [-2]
Claws [-1]
Supernatural Strength [-4]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch (Grappling) [+2]
Physical Immunity [-8]
The Catch (True Heroism, not magic) [+1]
Total Refresh Cost:
-26
Refresh Total:
-5

[My Dark Sunshine]

It looks awesome! Nice work Sanctaphrax, thank you. For a rough draft I can notice very little that needs tweaking, but then I won't really discover its balance until play-testing it.

The Catch (True Heroism, not magic) [+1]

Could I just clarify what you mean by this catch? That acts of 'True Heroism' that are magical in nature would not satisfy the catch, or that 'not magic' works in general to satisfy the catch?

One thing I might tweak, whilst being very pedantic, is a few of the aspects. But that is personal taste, based on how I like to phrase Aspects. For instance changing "Absolutely Terrifying", to "Crowds Flinch And Tremble At My Name" (variant of the Marillion lyrics 'They cannot face the trembling crowds that flinch in Grendel's name', from the song 'Grendel'). Although I'm sure there are much more awesome ways of phrasing such a variant. "Maybe Beowulf Should Lend You (My) Hand!" springs to mind, even if it wouldn't work very well. Perhaps "Descendant Of Kain" as a High Concept, or 'Grendel, The Monstrous Descendent Of Kain'. But I'll have to think on them.

That said, "Mother Dearest" shows aspects do not have to be long to be awesome. The Aspects you've listed also work a lot better in a 'flowing' line of speech to emphasise the use of an Invoke or Compel. "Grendel, being Surprisingly Non-Stupid does not fall for your obvious trickery" or "The Absolutely Terrifying monster approaches, and you can feel a bitter chill sweet down your spine. Roll discipline as a defence."

[Sanctaphrax]

You're very welcome.

The Catch works like this: he's immune to magic, and to non-magic that isn't truly heroic.

I would have left out the "not magic" part of the catch if the Grendlekin hadn't been immune to magic, but I didn't want Grendel to lack one of his scion's biggest powers.

"Crowds Flinch And Tremble At My Name" sounds awesome, I'll put it in.

I had no idea that Grendel was connected to Kain, and if I had known I would have given him an aspect for it. So I'll take your advice for the high concept as well.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing about the results of your playtesting.