Paging Dr. Hicks, Dr. Fred Hicks please

[Morfedel]

We know that sufficiently powerful things can break through circles. You have only to look to Fool Moon and the loup-garou. That thing goes through normal circles like they're made of paper.

Likewise, I wouldn't expect a line of chalk to stop Mab or an angel. And I can't imagine that it would hold a Denarian for too terribly long

That's why rules for circles would be nice. I like having rules more solid than, "Eh, leave it up to the GM."

Well, I think the aspect system will flesh it out... now.... although I must say a roll to create a basic circle with dirt/chalk/whatever is probably... what do you think, Discipline or Conviction or...? - But for the more complex stuff, it would have to be Thaumaturgy, and adding all kinds of Aspects to the circle being created, to be tagged/invoked as necessary for more power to the circle's "threshold."

I do admit I wish they had made a few examples, but I'm beginning to see different ways of doing things now.

[devonapple]

That's why rules for circles would be nice. I like having rules more solid than, "Eh, leave it up to the GM."

Well, we have some guidance on that already with the rules as written: need to stop an Epic attack? Use a Thaumaturgy ritual with Epic shifts of Complexity. Pretty simple. Add 4 at least to account for a phenomenal die roll, and maybe 5 more to counter a few Aspects. Them add shifts for duration if applicable.

[TheMouse]

Well, we have some guidance on that already with the rules as written: need to stop an Epic attack? Use a Thaumaturgy ritual with Epic shifts of Complexity. Pretty simple. Add 4 at least to account for a phenomenal die roll, and maybe 5 more to counter a few Aspects. Them add shifts for duration if applicable.

I'm talking about a non-wizard throwing up a shield. They don't get to use thaumaturgy, but they're allowed to use circles.

I'm capable of using spell-casters' abilities to model this. I'm talking about circles, which aren't restricted to the realm of casters.

[devonapple]

I'm talking about a non-wizard throwing up a shield. They don't get to use thaumaturgy, but they're allowed to use circles.

I'm capable of using spell-casters' abilities to model this. I'm talking about circles, which aren't restricted to the realm of casters.

True. If we can, we should use the same rules for non-wizards. But a lot of non-wizards won't be able to replicate Thaumaturgical effects.  But what most Vanilla Mortal non-wizards *should* have are Fate Points, especially the noncombatant mortals who didn't spend a lot on Stunts.

Butters as written (OS 119) *has* a Lore skill - it's only Average (+1), but with that little knowledge, and some Fate Points, he could:

1) attempt a Lore Maneuver to place the Aspect "Protected by a Magical Circle" on himself. If he botches the roll, he can spend Fate Points to re-roll or add To the roll. I imagine most GMs would allow Butters to invoke his "Physician to Wizards" Aspect for a +2 to this Lore check, rather than a straight Fate Point invocation of +1.

2) pile up those Fate Points and whenever something nasty comes at him, spend a Fate Point to Compel the nasty to leave him alone, via his Aspect "Protected by a Magical Circle." Repeat for as long as he has Fate Points.

Edit: he has a skill at +4, so he must be at least Feet in the Water, giving him 6 Refresh, plus 2 for being a Pure Mortal. He only spent 3 points on Stunts, giving him a whopping 5 Refresh (and 5 Fate Points on average to bring to a conflict, if he hasn't been Compelling other Aspects, like the ones which got him *into* this mess in the first place)

Edit 2: and for Mortals who have a Lore of Mediocre? They may have to go about this a longer route, throwing more Fate Points to get that Aspect "Protected by a Magical Circle." There is also the possibility that the Lore Maneuver isn't actually coming from the Mortal NPC - it could be Harry or another Wizard coaching the NPC on how to do it, making the Lore Maneuver on their behalf to place the Aspect "Coached by a Wizard", and then letting the Mortal NPC use his own pool of Fate Points to make sure it gets Compelled against incoming nasties, or if necessary, to Invoke the Aspect to make the Circle in the first place.

[Morfedel]

So, going back and reading the rules on thresholds, it says that a threshold starts with a basic strength of 3, then gets +2 for each positive element that should boost it, and a -2 for each negative one.

So, perhaps with building a circle, to represent how potent they seem to be even with the simple ones done by guys like Butters, something like this might work:

At the end of constructing a circle via the most simple means, the user in question makes a Discipline or Conviction roll (I'm tending to lean towards the latter, but...), or maybe lore?  or can use your thaumaturgy abilities if you have it; add the total result to 3 for the strength of the circle.

So, Butters invokes his "Polka Will Never Die," aspect and rolls his dice, gets a +2 on the dice, another +2 from his aspect invoked, for a net Threshold strength of 7.

Since a Threshold can act like a block, that provides for a really hefty block for him just standing there.

Molly decides to scribe a circle around a big horde of Binder's demon thuggie guys. She performs a manuever, "taking my time," and another, "I need to get this perfect!" on herself, then finishes the circle. She makes her roll, gets a +1, tags the two aspects for a net +4, adding that to the base threshold strength of 3 for a total circle strength of 8. Binder's thuggies dissolve into goo.

Dresden builds his spiffy metallic super circle in his lab, with aspects "Metallic Ring Crafted by the Fey," "Runed and Empowered," and "Carefully and Meticulously Constructed."

Or something like that.

Then when he summons something, he adds in those three aspects he can invoke to his Thaumaturgy checks.

Or whatever. I don't have my books on me, I'm sleepy, sick, and all that. Stupid allergies. So I'm stream-of-consciousness typing here right now. Ugh.

[sinker]

I think most people are forgetting the "common ritual" trapping of lore. At it's most complex common ritual is a one time use sponsored magic spell that requires no power whatsoever on the part of the user. In this particular case though I'd say that the sponsor isn't necessary, so butters would do everything exactly like a wizard would (and probably had to spend a little extra stress or consequences in the form of using his own blood to bring the spell up to the power he wanted) and we'd say that for this simple ritual his knowledge (and a little of the aforementioned blood) was all that was necessary.

[devonapple]

The question remains: how strong is that "common ritual" Circle?

[siggelsworth]

I could see the Conviction score of the person creating the circle playing a significant part.  Sure, Lore lets you know that you can make a circle, but Conviction is a measure of your faith in the ability of the circle.  If my players wanted to do this, I would probably start with the base threshold value and add their Conviction score (or possibly a Conviction roll).

[TheMouse]

The question remains: how strong is that "common ritual" Circle?

Going that route, it would be just another Evocation Block.

Which is problematic in that such circles would pretty much suck. Your normal person isn't going to have terribly good stats for casting spells. So they're going to be able to produce things like a +2 Block that lasts two turns.

It's additionally problematic because it means that normal people can cause explosions by drawing circles of chalk on the ground. They're going to quickly hit an area where they're not going to be able to control the strength that they've drawn up, and it's going to either hurt them or their surroundings. Which is silly and doesn't really match what we've seen from the books.

This all goes to say that I don't think that common rituals are the way to go for this. They don't end up producing the results we see in the books.

[devonapple]

Going that route, it would be just another Evocation Block.
Which is problematic in that such circles would pretty much suck. Your normal person isn't going to have terribly good stats for casting spells. So they're going to be able to produce things like a +2 Block that lasts two turns.

Well, not exactly - a Ritual would still use Thaumaturgy time frames, not Evocation, so that Circle would (hypothetically) be lasting until the next sunrise unless destroyed or dismissed soon. Not as bad as an Evocation Block, but still low-powered.

At this point, I think the Pure Mortal Player has a few options:

1) Lore Maneuver to place Sticky Aspect "Protected by a Magical Circle" - pay Fate Points to keep nasties away.

2) Set it up as a Thaumaturgical Block effect, except they don't need a Lore prerequisite or Lore Declarations - base shifts = their Conviction.

[TheMouse]

Well, not exactly - a Ritual would still use Thaumaturgy time frames, not Evocation, so that Circle would (hypothetically) be lasting until the next sunrise unless destroyed or dismissed soon. Not as bad as an Evocation Block, but still low-powered.

I guess if you're willing to assume that it's not only a common ritual but that it's Thaum at Evo speed. Because the book says that Thaum should take at least a minute to use, and that's longer than drawing a circle and putting a drop of blood on it.

I guess cutting yourself could be the infliction of a Mild Consequence, which adds 2 to the strength of the thing.

It still doesn't address the issue of normal people drawing circles with chalk sometimes causing explosions.

[devonapple]

I guess if you're willing to assume that it's not only a common ritual but that it's Thaum at Evo speed. Because the book says that Thaum should take at least a minute to use, and that's longer than drawing a circle and putting a drop of blood on it.

The book also calls it a kind of Sponsored Magic, which does allow Thaum at Evo speed.

We seem to have a decent selection of options on the table, each of which falls down in some part or another, so we may have to pick and choose depending on the situation.

[sinker]

In addition if we are still using the common ritual trapping then we are making the circle as thaumaturgy. The only thing that's really important for making powerful thaumaturgic effects is lore. No discipline or conviction necessary (although they would help).

The other reason I have no issue with this is because in the books Dresden at least initially states that making a circle is not easy. It's not just drawing a circle and putting a drop of blood in it. You have to very carefully draw the circle, with an eye toward perfection and all the while focusing on your intent. Dresden makes it seem easy because as a wizard he has done it many, many times and can do it by muscle memory like a rote spell. If you don't do it carefully you would have a poor circle, and it wouldn't work as well as it normally could. I think that very well reflects that if a normal person took a bit of time, they could throw up a powerful circle (limited only by his lore) with the common ritual trapping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal people drawing circles with chalk sometimes causing explosions" mouse, but normal people should have access to a more full range of thaumaturgic effects, should they find a functioning ritual that calls on an active being of power (I.E. as a common ritual, but handled by sponsor debt) Ala

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Madge, Trixie, and the other one (I don't remember the name) in white night.

[devonapple]

I think that very well reflects that if a normal person took a bit of time, they could throw up a powerful circle (limited only by his lore) with the common ritual trapping.

I completely neglected to include this in an earlier point - thank you for mentioning it: taking extra time might make it easier for Uninitiated mortals in this situation, though the pivotal example - Butters making a circle - was presumably done in a single exchange. But I maintain with enough Fate Points, Butters could have risen to the challenge in a variety of rulesets.

[TheMouse]

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal people drawing circles with chalk sometimes causing explosions" mouse

Failed rolls can result in backlash and fallout.