Magical Creation and an Alternate Summoning System

[Sanctaphrax]

Here's my comparison:

The second method returns much higher complexities, especially in the following cases:

-Physically tough creatures
-Very small creatures

In order to solve this, I suggest that the mental stress track be used instead of the physical one. Also, the level of consequence that the summon will take should be limited based on their expected significance. So a random Imp would only take a minor consequence, while a Demon Lord would take severe or even extreme consequences. This method makes it possible to calculate the complexity to summon/create shapeshifters, since True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities can't increase the mental stress track.

[devonapple]

I feel shapeshifters don't need a discount. I'm not so sure I want to assume the shapeshifter needs to be on it's toughest build to be summoned, but they have immense utility. So we don't need to assume one is at it's highest level of toughness.
 
I believe that the stress track used should be the highest one on the creature, coming from the assumption that the creature is generally needed for whatever it's highest stress track is.

I do like using the creature type to indicate how many consequences it will take. That's pretty cool, and will definitely bring down costs for the simpler low-commitment creatures.

[Sanctaphrax]

The mental stress track part is mainly intended to remove the doubled cost of toughness and size powers, but it also has the positive effect of making Conviction important.

I wasn't suggesting that shapeshifters get a discount, but I don't think that shapeshifting powers should cost extra when no other type of power does.

I still prefer my method, but these changes ought to make the other one more reasonable.

[devonapple]

I think I can get behind not charging double for toughness powers then - excellent point.

I mostly worry that choosing Conviction will encourage a Summoner to minmax and pick high-strength, low-Conviction thug types, but low-Conviction creatures are more vulnerable to mental manipulation so they can be their own balancing factor there, perhaps?

Definitely getting close!

[UmbraLux]

Complexities for various summons and constructs, before counting duration, qualities, and behaviour. Complexity with my method is first, complexity with UmbraLux's is second.

It looks like you didn't discount any with defects, that correct?  Some probably should...zombies might be Slow, Follows Orders Literally and Requires Constant Drumbeat to reduce cost by 9 to 27.  Demons would have Dark Powers are Always Willing to Help...for a Price, Interprets Orders to Suit Own Agenda and possibly more (imps may be Stupid or Cruelly Mischievous while Demon Lords might be Difficult to Control). 

Regarding shapeshifters, why do you feel they're not covered?  Isn't it just a matter of paying for the powers?  Same with small creatures - that's just the Diminutive Size power.  Regarding tough creatures, I agree with devonapple - they should cost more than something less durable and less useful.

---
Here's an alternative to copying entities from the book - how would you summon or create these?
Illusory Messenger Powers:  Diminutive Size, Wings.  Stunts:  Urban Tracker.  Skills:  Survival +3, (plus others to have pyramid).  Cannot Affect the Material World (sticky) and Follows Orders Robotically (sticky).
 - Cost:  11 (23+2+1+3-18)

Clockwork Hound Powers:  Claws, Inhuman Strength.  Stunts:  Footwork.  Skills:  Fists +3, (plus others...).
Follows Orders Robotically (sticky).
 - Cost:  21 (23+3+1+3-9)

Agroklargah the Demon  Powers:  Claws, Inhuman Strength, Speed, and Toughness* (catch is +1 holy items & faith).  Stunts:  Caveat Emptor and Terrifying Demon.  Skills:  Deceit +5 (plus others...).
The Dark Powers are Always Willing to Help...for a Price (sticky), Interprets Orders to Suit a Hellish Agenda (sticky), and Hates Being Bound (not sticky - but the summoner may be in trouble if the demon gets enough fate points).
 - Cost:  15 (23+6+2+5-21)

*Didn't charge for the added consequence as you suggested.  If you do charge for it, add 2 to the cost.

[Sanctaphrax]

@UmbraLux: Shapeshifters are not covered because the traits that determine cost are subject to change. I ignored defects because they aren't relevant to the current question of "what stats can you get for X complexity?" Discounts can be worked out later.

@devonapple: Yeah, the ease of minmaxing is a major reason for my dislike of this system. I guess that using the best stress track (ignoring powers) would help with that.

Or we could ditch this whole "taking out" thing and use a static value, making the cost of summoning

static value + refresh cost + consequences

which would be even easier.

PS: Zombies aren't slow.

[UmbraLux]

@UmbraLux: Shapeshifters are not covered because the traits that determine cost are subject to change.

Aren't they simply paying for the number of points spent on powers?  Doesn't matter if the given power changes.  (Exception being if you're paying twice for power granted consequences.)

I ignored defects because they aren't relevant to the current question of "what stats can you get for X complexity?" Discounts can be worked out later.

Hmm, I see the discounts as integral to the system.  Just as the multipliers are in the system you proposed.

Or we could ditch this whole "taking out" thing and use a static value, making the cost of summoning

static value + refresh cost + consequences

which would be even easier.

Interestingly, this is essentially what I did in the above examples.  Started everything out at 23.

PS: Zombies aren't slow.

Depends on the zombies!   I always like the Romero version - mindless, shambling, and hungry. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Shapeshifting can increase Endurance, which increases the complexity of the ritual by your system.

The discounts shouldn't be taken as integral because they are modifiers. The behaviour multipliers are also being ignored right now. We're just looking at stats, and thinking about what you should get for a given cost.

PS: I think it should be possible to summon things without taking defects.

[UmbraLux]

PS: I think it should be possible to summon things without taking defects.

I agree.  That said, I don't see 30 shifts as all that difficult.  The seven aspects I threw out in an earlier post are +14 and it wouldn't be difficult to come up with more.  Particularly if it's a group effort.  Add that to the four or so you have from Lore, the potential of accepting or inflicting up to 20 or so consequences (potentially a lot more for NPCs willing to kill), and one per scene skipped for PCs.  Thaumaturgy is powerful!  No reason to make it more so. 

On a side note, I've been going through the Thaumaturgy rules to make a cheat sheet...and noticed something I hadn't paid much attention to in the past.  One of the sidebars on YS:273 alludes to summoning corporeal entities.  I'd definitely require that to 'take out' the summonee - and without defects.  I'm somewhat curious also, could you summon a human without breaking the fourth law?

[Sanctaphrax]

30 shifts is a whole lot. Those seven aspects represented a pretty impressive bit of ritual preparation to me, and making all seven Declaration rolls wouldn't be easy in one of my games. Look at the entropy curse in the spellcasting examples section of YS. It's presented as a very powerful spell and its complexity is 26 (if I recall correctly).

I think that summoning corporeal entities is totally different from summoning incorporeal ones. I'd actually treat it as a form of forcible teleportation, and we all know how hard teleporting is in this game.

[devonapple]

30 shifts is a whole lot. Those seven aspects represented a pretty impressive bit of ritual preparation to me, and making all seven Declaration rolls wouldn't be easy in one of my games. Look at the entropy curse in the spellcasting examples section of YS. It's presented as a very powerful spell and its complexity is 26 (if I recall correctly).

I think that summoning corporeal entities is totally different from summoning incorporeal ones. I'd actually treat it as a form of forcible teleportation, and we all know how hard teleporting is in this game.

The death curse is rated at 36 for its target, but could be in the mid-20s for average targets. The minimum for taking out anything deathwise is 23:
20 for the whole Consequence track
3 for the shortest possible Stress track (should really target 5 or more)
0 to overcome a Mediocre Endurance check that rolled a 0 or worse (should really target 6 or more)

But this is just review. This could easily fail, even against a scrub. Although most nameless NPCs will only go to a moderate consequence (per the rules) I think death is a different matter. Then again, "nameless NPCs" don't usually become the target of death curses, do they? So, low 30s is a decent target for killing an average mortal being.

As far as summoning mortals... forced teleportation would make sense, but I think the easiest way to model it in this system is to "take out" the mortal like with a Transformation effect (or a death curse). Teleportation is just too hard in the system, and I'm not convinced that's how they would do it. The "taken out" mechanic is usually a good "all or nothing" guideline for how powerful a spell is. I think it is appropriately harder than Summoning a Nevernever creature (which only require you to overcome the creature's Conviction, as well as Contain and Bind it). I think the Summoning would be the hardest part of that, but the BInding and Containing would be about the same as with a Nevernever critter.

Re: Fourth Law - Containing, Summoning, and Binding are the three aspects of this discipline. Binding a mortal would be a Fourth Law violation. Containing would not be.

You can leave out the Binding and just bargain with the mortal, avoiding the Fourth Law violation.
You could leave out Containing and just trust that you can avoid a summoned mortal's wrath, but it wasn't really a violation of a Magical Law.

The Summoning itself might constitute a Second Law violation, but little else.

Behavior Index:

• Uncontrolled (x0.5 cost) - does what it pleases, which probably isn't what you want it to do.
• Disloyal (x0.75 cost) - can be directed, but won't obey properly. Either looks for loopholes or simply lacks any intelligence at all. Requires micromanaging.
• Animal (x1 cost) - can be directed, but unsuited for certain tasks; untrained and instinctual.
• Single Function Robot (x1 cost) - does one thing only, without free will, initiative, or surprises.
• Robot (x1.25 cost) - obeys commands, no free will or initiative, but no surprises either.
• Thug (x1.5 cost) - can be directed, some free will, but requires attention to keep in line.
• Specialist/Lieutenant (x1.75 cost) - free willed, relatively independent; can be given complex tasks or command others.
• Super Robot (x2 cost) - obeys instinctively, can be commanded like a second player character.
• Battle Butler (x3 cost) - perfect obedience, absolute loyalty, entirely independent, will act to help the summoner on its own initiative.

But getting back to Summoning: the book already has rules for Summoning - what we have been statting out, I had intended more for making Constructs.

As it is, Summoning and Binding works as follows:

   1. Contain
   2. Summon
   3. Bind

Containing

    * Create a Ward (attune Strength & Duration to your purposes)
    * Usually need entity’s True Name as a Lore Declaration

Summoning

    * Conviction contest with target entity (aim for Conviction +5 to +10)
    * Resisting entities attack through block (usually mental conflict using Conviction)
    * Bargain or Bully with an interpersonal skill, or Bind using magic (see below)

Binding

   Option 1. Use enough shifts to “take out” entity - this completely binds it.

   Option 2. Assault being with its True Name in a multiple-exchange Mental Conflict:
          * Mental conflict: Your Discipline vs. entity’s Conviction
          * Assault directly with spirit evocations
          * Entity will likely try to break or pervert the Binding when it recovers its Consequences

So, are we creating these Summoning rules to roll up the Binding and the Summoning together?

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes, this was intended to include summoning and binding. But if you only want to use it for construction, that's fine.

I'm not really a fan of that summoning system, honestly.

Behaviour chart looks good.

[devonapple]

I am now realizing *my* error for having inadvertently lumped Summoning in with Conjuring.

Let's finalize the discussed method of Conjuring, and mention early on that folks who are not satisfied with the Summoning rules (or find them to be too expensive) can substitute this system, and specify which elements we want to to replace (Containing, Summoning and/or Binding).

Option 1)
This was the initial Sanctaphrax version, which I reworded:

• Skills cost 2 complexity per 5 points.
• Skill cap costs complexity equal to [highest skill rank added to each lower rank] divided by 2 (round up).
  Example: Highest rank skill is level 3, therefore (3+2+1)/2 = 3]
• Stunts cost 1 complexity apiece for the first 3, 1/2 apiece after that.
• Powers cost 1 complexity per refresh point.
• Choose a Behavioral Modifier (listed above)
  Add the total Complexity of Skills, Skill Cap, Stunts and Powers
  Multiply that Complexity by the Behavioral Modifier to get the creature's basic Complexity, before applying Duration
• Duration costs start at a day and go up or down from there.
  Bear in mind that some creations might be effectively permanent, with duration representing lifespan.

Option 2)
Umbralux offered this option, which I have edited:

• max shifts to take out entity (minor entities only need a Minor or Moderate Consequence)
• + one shift per power / stunt point
• + shifts equal to entity's skill cap
• +/- 2 shifts per Quality or Defect (one free tag)
  Qualities = generally useful traits; Defects = unknown flaws (potentially problematic traits, incompetencies or hidden agendas
• +/- 9 shifts per sticky Quality or Defect (always in effect)
• Some things, such as demons, should probably automatically get a Dark Powers are Always Willing to 'Help'...for a Price or an Interprets Everything to fit it's Own Agenda sticky defect...or even both.
• + shifts for duration - starts at a day and goes up or down from there.

I originally chose a Scene for the basic duration, but we'll use a Day (the GM may determine whether it is that or something longer, depending on circumstances).

Was my rewording accurate?

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, I think that sounds pretty good. The systems we have here should probably replace all three steps of summoning if used for that.

The rewordings look fine, although I'd start duration at a day.

Now, tweaking the systems:

-We still need rules for groups.
-Might as well ditch the half price for stunts after the third bit in my model. It's just a meaningless complication.
-Might want to reduce the extremely high values of sticky qualities/defects in UmbraLux's model.
-I still think that the mechanics for taking out a creation under UmbraLux's model are screwy.
-These need playtesting.

[Sanctaphrax]

Just went back through the thread and found a suggestion for rules for summoning groups. Here it is:

Second: add 1/2 the Base Complexity or +2, whichever is higher (round up)
Third through Fifth: add 1/4 the base Complexity or +1, whichever is higher per duplicate (round up)
Sixth and more: use the Method 1 (from conjuration thread) pricing.

The third category looks a bit sketchy to me, but the first two are fine. But there's really no chance of a creature having 4 complexity or less to create, so we might as well get rid of the "or +X, whichever is higher" bits.