Magical Creation and an Alternate Summoning System

[devonapple]

So, we have Conjuration, Crafting and Illusions, all of which make an effect.

For each of these, we have several of the following factors: Size, Quality, Number and Animus.

• Should these be unilaterally aligned?
• Should Crafting be just like Conjuring, but factoring in greater time for better quality and relative permanence?
• Should Illusions be like Conjuring, but cheaper because they are insubstantial?
• Should the AI of a golem be treated the same as the interactibility of an illusion? Is an illusion (in effect) a phantom conjuration?
• How expensive should Powers, Skills and Stunts be?
• Is paying to give the Golem the Demonic Copilot power the simplest way to animate it, without having to "program" the AI? Obviously programming your own AI is more reliable than the Demonic Copilot, but how much of a discount should it be to rely on the forces from the "Deep Deep South" for cheap labor?

I have a thread on Conjuring, there is another on crafting golems and other magical pets.

We may be close to getting some sort of unilateral method for adjudicating these thaumaturgical effects. What are your thoughts? Excluding, of course, "why bother?" because that is not what this thread is for - GMs will remain free to specify the difficulty of these things as they see fit in their own games. This is for those who do want some sort of guidelines. And hopefully we can make them simple and scalable.

[Sanctaphrax]

-I think that Illusions should work similiarily to Conjuring, but Crafting shouldn't.

-I don't think that letting players create characters and then summon them with a complexity determined by the character's stats will work out well. It encourages minmaxing. A less mechanical approach where the GM assigns complexity based on gut instinct and creature power seems more viable to me. The problem is that we have no examples against which to measure the appropriateness of a given complexity.

-For potentially dangerous AI, I would use aspects. A spellcaster can accept a defect in exchange for +2 base complexity. For each defect, the GM picks an aspect for the summoned/created creature and can compel that aspect once for free.

[devonapple]

-I don't think that letting players create characters and then summon them with a complexity determined by the character's stats will work out well. It encourages minmaxing. A less mechanical approach where the GM assigns complexity based on gut instinct and creature power seems more viable to me. The problem is that we have no examples against which to measure the appropriateness of a given complexity.

That seems to agree with the spirit of the game: players should not know the full stats of anything they summon.

However, we could still establish a mechanism for the GM to adjudicate costs, as long as it is understood that it is the GM's decision what is actually summoned and how much it costs, rather than the player picking and choosing. The player could have some input (such as "I need something that can fly and spit poison") and the GM could roll with that, generate a Nevernever critter on the fly, add in some unexpected bits, and use this guide to give the player a final Complexity. The player will know the final Complexity, but not exactly how those points were spent.

-For potentially dangerous AI, I would use aspects. A spellcaster can accept a defect in exchange for +2 base complexity. For each defect, the GM picks an aspect for the summoned/created creature and can compel that aspect once for free.

I would love for you to unpack this idea some more. I think I know what you are saying, and I like where it appears to be going, but I could be wrong, so if you would please elaborate, perhaps with an example, I'd appreciate it.

[Sanctaphrax]

You are right, we do need some guidelines. But I have no idea what they should be.

Example of defects: Frederick the sorcerer needs to summon a big, powerful monster to help him in an upcoming fight against some ghouls. The GM tells him that an appropriate demon would require 14 complexity. Frederick has a base complexity of 4 and manages to get +6 complexity with Declarations and a minor consequence. But then he runs out of ideas for declarations and rather than take a moderate consequence he decides to let the GM assign 2 defects to the demon he summons. The GM decides to give the demon the aspects REALLY STUPID and MASTER OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Frederick does not know what those aspects are, but he does know that his demon has some nasty surprises in store.

The next day, Frederick and his demon are kicking some ghoul ass when the GM decides to compel MASTER OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE. If Frederick does not spend a fate point, the demon will destroy several parked cars and make a huge mess for Frederick to explain to the police. Frederick will not get a fate point if he accepts this compel.

Regardless of the results of this compel, the GM still has another free compel waiting for the REALLY STUPID aspect.

PS: There should be rules for summoning multiple creatures at once.

[devonapple]

I like your idea about tacking Defects (or "mystery Aspects") onto the summoned creature to make up for any Lore deficit in the summoning. I think your example illustrated it quite effectively. It is a wonderful player-side source of potential drama. I'd still love to find a way to balance Demons/AIs against each other.

I think we should definitely set up a cost difference between Conjuring multiple noncombatant AIs or Illusions and Summoning/Conjuring multiple combatant AIs/Demons.

Do you think Method 1 on this thread is costly enough for multiple combatant AIs/Demons? Or would you go for a straight Complexity increase of 1 or 2 shifts per copy?

So now we have:

Form:
Conjuration: Ectoplasm made Solid (can be animated by AI, Demon, or nothing at all)
Illusion: Light and/or Perception manipulated (can be animated by AI or nothing at all)
Summoning: Creature transported somewhere (can be a Demon or other Nevernever entity, and it is hinted that mortals can also be summoned)

Crafting: usually intended to create Enchanted Items - could theoretically be used to prepare artificial terrestrial bodies for inhabitation by a Demon or an AI)

Would putting a Demon or an AI into a previously prepared (Golem) Body be considered Summoning or Conjuration?

Would the old "elemental spirit" idea be considered an AI?

Does the mortal will create a limited consciousness out of nothing? Or is there some component from the Nevernever, the spirit world, or elemental energies which is inhabiting that potential?

Obviously summoned Demons (per Demonic Co-Pilot) have their own agendas whenever they are used for these things. Would other entities have similar things? Would this fall under the Defects idea mentioned above?

[sinker]

I don't know why I wasn't looking at this thread. It is exactly the kind of thing I dig.

Of note summoning is usually also ectoplasm made solid, just by the creature itself not by you. Though I suppose it might be interesting to actually summon a physical form from somewhere else. Would the being allow that? It would be risking it's actual life and limb in that case. It might also cause all sorts of havoc if freed (and be really hard to banish).

Would putting a Demon or an AI into a previously prepared (Golem) Body be considered Summoning or Conjuration?

I'd say it's summoning for a demon, since you're calling a spirit and binding it into service. The AI is always tricky to pin down though isn't it? What are you doing to create said AI? Or more importantly where does the animating force come from? If the wizard is actually animating it with his own force is it fair to assume that there's already sort of an AI built in (as long as the golem is fairly similar to the wizard's actual body, with arms and legs in all the right places) since that force is part of the wizard and knows how to move the wizard's body?

[Sanctaphrax]

My first instinct is to have no mechanical difference between demons and AIs at all. I really have no idea how to differentiate them. Where a demon has evil desires, an AI has programming glitches.

Not sure exactly how to balance combat against noncombat. Perhaps you could summon some spirits without physical bodies in exchange for a reduced complexity.

I think that the cost to summon multiple creatures should vary depending on the cost of a single creature. While adding two complexity to get an extra Imp is probably reasonable, adding two complexity to get an extra Demon Lord probably isn't.

I wouldn't allow the use of crafting for construct creation, although I would allow summoning effects to be flavoured that way when placed in an enchanted item. This is because I want to avoid as many mechanical headaches as possible.

I don't know whether golem creation should be conjuring or summoning. I'm leaning slightly towards summoning.

I'd treat an elemental spirit just like a demon or AI mechanically.

I have no idea where conciousness comes from.

I would use the defect system along with regular old compels to represent the summoned creature's agenda.

[devonapple]

I think there are a few ways the Demons could be used.

1) Summon the Demon. It creates its own ectoplasmic body, which it presumably has to expend Will to maintain, which means it has trouble with Thresholds and such.

2) Summon the Demon INTO an Ectoplasmic Shell you have created using a separate Thaumaturgic Ritual (in addition to the Circle, the Summoning and the Binding). Now the only logical advantages I can see with this is that:

a) the Demon is presumably expending less energy to occupy the Ectoplasmic Shell than to maintain an ectoplasmic body it self-generated - is this a power boost? Or is it more like item c (see below)? How much of a power savings should it be?

b) the spellcaster has some control over what the Ectoplasmic body looks like (of debatable permanence and utility - I wouldn't imagine for a second that Demon can't warp the Ectoplasmic Shell for its own purposes)

c) the Demon may be able to use the Ectoplasmic Shell to minimize the hazards of Thresholds - maybe the Demon gets to Invoke its Ectoplasmic Shell to add to a defense roll against the Threshold, or maybe the spellcaster would build it to negate X ranks of Threshold - seems like potential for abuse, but it is a potential advantage

d) the spellcaster may be able to give the Demon a particular power it may not possess when generating its own ectoplasmic body

3) Summon the Demon into a Golem Body of some sort, like the Demonic Co-Pilot ability in the Powers section. Presumably you build the Golem Body with particular attributes and abilities, then "enlist" the Demon to "pilot" it. That means you could build either a Diamond Golem that shoots sunlight, a Clay Golem with Malleability, or a Coal Golem that can shoot Brimstone, and whichever you built, you could theoretically enlist the same Demon to pilot it. Or the next one.

4) Summon the Demon into a Mortal Body. This sounds at one end of the scale like a Plot Device, and at the lower end of the scale, the before-mentioned Demonic Co-Pilot.

The Demon would, of course, want to be used instead of an AI so that it could wreak havoc and corruption here in the material world, and it would provide benefits up-front to entice a would-be Summoner. So however we balance things out, it should always be cheaper and/or more effective (in the short term) to rely on a Demon (but ultimately less safe).

I like your observation about AIs probably building off of the spellcaster's will. Would the AI then be limited by the spellcaster in the skills it could have? Would someone with a Mediocre Burglary be able/unable to craft an Infiltrator Golem and stock it with a Superb Burglary?

Can you imagine listening close to that field of conjured frogs and realize they aren't actually croaking, but saying "Ribbit" in Harry Dresden's voice?

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd model the effects of using a demon instead of an AI with defects. Not because it's a perfect system (it clearly isn't) but because it's easy.

I'd say that methods one and two of using demons could be treated the same mechanically.

Not sure whether an AI should require the spellcaster to have the abilities that he wants to grant. I suppose that AIs could be differentiated from demons in that it costs extra to give an AI skills that you don't have.

[devonapple]

Not sure whether an AI should require the spellcaster to have the abilities that he wants to grant. I suppose that AIs could be differentiated from demons in that it costs extra to give an AI skills that you don't have.

I like this... we may not charge the spellcaster for EVERY skill point possessed by an AI, but it makes sense ot make them pay for the difference in any given skill. Brilliant! Thank you.

I'd model the effects of using a demon instead of an AI with defects. Not because it's a perfect system (it clearly isn't) but because it's easy.

it is easy, and certainly an automatic Defect (or at least, the first Defect to be used for all but the most low-level thug Demons) would be something like "Demonic Agenda."

[devonapple]

I think that the cost to summon multiple creatures should vary depending on the cost of a single creature. While adding two complexity to get an extra Imp is probably reasonable, adding two complexity to get an extra Demon Lord probably isn't.

That makes sense. Bigger, badder things should cost more to duplicate (wetting aside for a moment that having a bonus Demon Lord is not a benefit in the long run, but rather a mine of additional player trouble, and that kind of trouble is happy to come cheap).

I've been considering the following way to adjudicate something's Complexity (I also used the factorial symbol "!" incorrectly in a previous thread: x! = 1 * 2 * ... * x. I meant 1 + 2 + ... + x) - this assumes an independent AI with no relationship to the spellcaster, or perhaps a Demon:
1. Take highest skill rank and then add points for each lower skill level, down to 1 (Skill 5 would cost 5+4+3+2+1 = 15)
2. Add +1 for each additional skill at the highest skill rank
3. Add +2 Complexity for every Refresh worth of power, and +1 Complexity for every Mortal Stunt - subtract weakness like The Catch from the Complexity
4. For any duplicates, add up the preceding to get the Base Complexity:
Second: add 1/2 the Base Complexity or +2, whichever is higher (round up)
Third through Fifth: add 1/4 the base Complexity or +1, whichever is higher per duplicate (round up)
Sixth and more: use the Method 1 pricing.

[sinker]

Another thing to think of is that there are more than just two options. As far as binding spirits to animate the construct you could use a demon or a fey spirit of some kind or some kind of spirit of knowledge, etc. A solution to putting skills into the golem that you don't have might be summoning something that does and you don't necessarily have to deal with down below for that. Any of these beings would of course have their own agendas and quirks, but they might not be nearly as dangerous as a demon. Then again sometimes dangerous is what you want.

[devonapple]

Another thing to think of is that there are more than just two options. As far as binding spirits to animate the construct you could use a demon or a fey spirit of some kind or some kind of spirit of knowledge, etc. A solution to putting skills into the golem that you don't have might be summoning something that does and you don't necessarily have to deal with down below for that. Any of these beings would of course have their own agendas and quirks, but they might not be nearly as dangerous as a demon. Then again sometimes dangerous is what you want.

That's true - there are numerous options. Most of the book examples mention AIs, Demons or Spirits, but Spirits could come in a wide variety of options, limited only by the imagination.

So that brings us back to the elements we do have control of:

Skills:
Should AI skills get a discount if the spellcaster creating it possesses the same skills?
Or should the skills portion of a conjuration/summoning cost the same no matter what type of entity is being used (AI, Demon, Spirit, or anything else)?

Stunts:
Is it enough to charge +1 Complexity for each Stunt?

Powers:
Is it enough to charge +2 Complexity for each Refresh of Powers?

Defects: These unintended Aspects are manifested by whatever is being summoned (like Demonic Agenda, Fey Prankster, Engine of Destruction, Dumb as a Hammer, and more). Each Defect can contribute 2 shifts towards making up the Lore Deficit for the Thaumaturgic Ritual.

Duplication:
Should spellcasters be allowed to Summon multiples of a creature with a single Ritual?

And we haven't even touched on the costs of Summoning a Mortal.

[devonapple]

I've gone back to the "Spirit of the Century" rules, and one of the Stunts they have is the Minions stunt. Basically, a player with this Stunt gets 3 Minions of a certain competence (Fair, Average, etc.), as well as a few upgrades, which can be spent to increase their effectiveness, their numbers, etc.

I wonder if spellcasters like Binder should be given an equivalent Power (Nevernever Minions) which reflects the ability to reliably summon and control a certain number of supernatural minions in a given Scene or Scenario, rather than price it out as a Ritual and make it potentially uncertain?

Sort of like letting an Evocation specialist the Breath Weapon power to reflect mastery of ranged magical attacks?

[devonapple]

I'd say that methods one and two of using demons could be treated the same mechanically.

I found this on YS 230:
"Some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they’re usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together... If they cross a threshold without counteracting it, they just… melt. Some powerful creatures (such as demons) manage to get around this with a physical manifestation that they aren’t personally maintaining. Even so, when an entity crosses a threshold in a mystically manufactured body, most of the entity’s power goes toward holding it all together, limiting it to what its body can physically do."

I take this to support that a Threshold would still act as a Block on a Demon's actions, but that an Ectoplasmic Shell could still buffer it from being melted outright. Some mechanical difference then.