Unsolved Mysteries Version II

[Arkham8]

This may or may not be a relevant mystery, but I find it interesting.

How exactly could did Satan get the Fallen in the coins? One would assume that he wasn't powerful enough to get all 30 Fallen in the coins, especially given that Anduriel was his top general. Did Satan get God in on it? Or did Satan somehow trick them into the coins.

I realize that the popular consensus was that Satan just kinda did it, but I highly doubt he had the power to mystically confine and limit 30 of his peers just like that.

[Landing]

well the aren't really his peers, he is a Archangel they are just angels. His power level is a whole level of magnitude greater than theirs is. And he was the strongest if the archangels to begin with.

[knnn]

Also remember that Soulfire and Hellfire are supposedly two sides of the same coin.  Soulfire is "the power of creation" == coming directly from the Creator?  It seems to Hellfire can at best comes from Satan, so are they really equal? 

[Grey Paladin]

WOJ regarding the swords:
source: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,2894.msg65377.html#msg65377

And in no way does that change my feelings.  He says they are "super good for cutting through/disrupting fields of magical energy."  The barrier in question was magical energy.  So she should have been able to do it.

And wardenfairy419?  That was simply Hellfire augmented magic, not Lucifer's personal magic.  Harry said the "practice version" done to capture Marcone was powerful and charged with helfire-- he didn't say it was from Lucifer himself, and I'm pretty sure he'd have known (if not that it was Lucifer, that was was from something deifically powerful) and said something.

[knnn]

And in no way does that change my feelings.  He says they are "super good for cutting through/disrupting fields of magical energy."  The barrier in question was magical energy.  So she should have been able to do it.

And wardenfairy419?  That was simply Hellfire augmented magic, not Lucifer's personal magic.  Harry said the "practice version" done to capture Marcone was powerful and charged with helfire-- he didn't say it was from Lucifer himself, and I'm pretty sure he'd have known (if not that it was Lucifer, that was was from something deifically powerful) and said something.

Actually, in his rant in the chapel at the end of Small Favor, Harry specifically attributes the uber-circles to the "Prince of F***King Darkness".  When Uriel shows up, he pretty much confirms this by saying "maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly.  Maybe another did it quietly".

So yeah.  Satan did it.

[Grey Paladin]

I got the impression that it was more the whole mess that Harry was blaming on the PFD, but I suppose it's open to interpretation.

[Ms Duck]

Uriel said maybe.

There is, as yet, no proof satan is involved, or even exists in the DV. It ,may have been someone or something else. ( Baal, Tehob, Demogorgon, etc..)

second, there are quite a few thinsg more powerfull than the fallen in the DV; Mab and Titania are still listed by Harry as 'the most awesome thign he has ever seen with his sight.' and the queen mothers are levels above them.

so it would not surprise me to think that on the side of evil there are powers that consider nicodemus and co to be..pocket change.

even in the peom, when stan fell from heaven, the dragon in the darkness ( tehob) was there to meet him.

[sjsharks]

WoJ says that the Denarians were kicked out of Hell by Satan himself, so I don't understand why you would question his existence in the DV

[parthagenon]

Lucifer is more or less confirmed to exist in the DV, by both WOJ and in-book text.  All references have been rather oblique and/or vague, though, so Duck's theory may be right, and Lucifer may not be the biggest guy in Hell.

[Ms Duck]

Becuase Lucifer is not Satan ?

Becuase there have been hundreda if not thousands of different version of 'who rules hell' ?

Becuase many of the older ones had a dark queen, the arch enemy of the white god?

Becuase middle age christian ones had a trinity of evil, as an oppsoite to the father,s on, holy ghost?

eetc, etc..

[Landing]

Jim has a habit of going all in when he explores a certain mythology and have examples of all the different types out there. there are a lot of different sources for the devil/Satan/Lucifer/the dragon/prince of darkness/father of lies/etc. it might end up that Jim plays around with us some and makes them all be true so that you have one Satan one devil one Lucifer etc.

...or he could make them all be one being who got around a lot. we will just have to wait and see.

[Ms Duck]

I personally want to see Tehob.

really, really badly.

a great seven headed dragon rising from the waters like godzilla, speaking the voices of destruction with seven voices?

and Harry on the water beatle, realizeing his magic does not work over open water, and eh has his psitol and snark?

[Ms Duck]

I looked it up; unless I have the wrong quote, Jim does not say Satan or Lucifer, he says the 'big d'

Well.  Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly.  The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell--everyone the big D didn't want trying to stab him in the back, basically.  If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries. 

Which assumes that they /can/ be destroyed.  I mean, don't think that in 2,000 years, no one has ever TRIED it.  And there are still thirty of them kicking around.

Which isn't necessarily to say that it's impossible.  But it sure as Hell wouldn't be easy.  And given that, while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them, containment certainly seems to be a prudent course.

Funny you should mention that whole notion about redeeming Lasciel . . . >

Jim
 

[parthagenon]

Yeah, it is open to interpretation, which is why I said oblique/vague.  Then again, for me at least, "big D" implies Devil, which implies Satan/Lucifer.  If it had been somebody else Jim was referring to, I would expect him to use another term, like "big bad" or something.  Anyway, as this is a questions thread, I'll go ahead and add "Who is in charge in Hell?" to the list.

[knnn]

I got the impression that it was more the whole mess that Harry was blaming on the PFD, but I suppose it's open to interpretation.

Harry specifically says that Lucifer intervened twice.  If he was blaming the whole mess on him, I don't see why he would specify a number.