100 shift potions

[mostlyawake]

1) Other people can provide aspects for magic, like through a cult
2) Potions can get around the normal "twice your lore" cap of enchanted items through use of aspects at time of creation or use
=
3) A cult leader could have 25, 50, 100, 500, ect strength potions. Actually, through normal spell prep, any thaumaturge could have 20+ shifts bottled up pretty easily, to be released as needed.

So what keeps players from doing this?

[MijRai]

As far as potions, I believe they have a limit. I think it is twice the creator's Lore, or somesuch. As far as game-breaking rituals, that is ruled by the GM. I've talked to people who want to do what you just asked about, and the only thing you can do is not allow it in your game. Compell them, throw problems at them, or in extreme cases, 'Rocks Fall, Everybody (Or just the character who was doing the related thing) Dies'.

[Belial666]

1) The book doesn't actually say that potions can exceed the enchanted item power limitations - only that their power can be boosted on the fly rather than via spending more slots.

2) 100-shift rituals are possible. They have even been done in the books more than once and whith a lot more than 100 shifts. However, consider that whatever you want to do with said ritual, there will always be people that don't want you to do it. If a cult leader wants to do a 100-shift ritual, chances are his local wardens or other powerful groups get involved. And the more powerful magic he tries to pull off, naturally, the more people get involved in his business.

[bibliophile20]

It is capped at twice their Lore.

Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage.
 

Simple as that.  

However, if I were hit on the head--repeatedly--and were then persuaded to allow such a thing into my game, my PCs would have to work their asses off to pull off such a feat.  You want to make a potion that is basically bottled divinity?  Alright.  Step One: Get your ingredients together.  First, your liquid base...   wait, what do you mean that you don't have the blood of a god in your workshop?  Well, that's the liquid base ingredient, so you'd better go get some!  

And so forth.  Remember, the Hecataen Hags worked on their little ascension ritual mega-potion for years.  Thaumaturgy Rituals of that scale (much like a potion like this) should take similar amounts of time in preparation.  

Other points:

You can only ever have a maximum of 13 people for any project, IIRC (from Storm Front), which cuts down on the max number of aspects that can be invoked.

Remember that the characters are collecting Power.  Other people (and not-people) will want it.  Some will be willing to step over dead bodies to have it.  

A potion of that scale that grants powers sounds like an invitation to NPC-hood via Mid-Session Upgrading.  I think the GM would be perfectly within his rights to say "Okay, you just gave yourself Phenomenal Cosmic Power for the next half a year.  That means for the next half-a-year, until it wears off, your character has negative Refresh and is now an NPC.  What was your backup character's name again?"

[toturi]

A potion of that scale that grants powers sounds like an invitation to NPC-hood via Mid-Session Upgrading.  I think the GM would be perfectly within his rights to say "Okay, you just gave yourself Phenomenal Cosmic Power for the next half a year.  That means for the next half-a-year, until it wears off, your character has negative Refresh and is now an NPC.  What was your backup character's name again?"

When the players go for such things, I am quite sure that they are asking for the potion to grant them not just the access to gain such powers but also the ability to pay for them without losing their sense of self and free will.

GM: "Okay, you just gave yourself Phenomenal Cosmic Power for the next half a year. That means..."
Players who were involved in the creation of the potion: "That means for the next half-a-year, until it wears off, my character temporarily gets enough Refresh so that he is not an NPC. What were you saying again?"

[sinker]

Ok, firstly the hyper rules-lawyer approach. The rules say that potions are "very similar to enchanted items in terms of function." It does not say that all rules relating to enchanted items also apply to potions, and since the potion section does not actually specify any power limits at all nor does it specifically state that potions are like enchanted items in that respect (for that matter it actually gives potions their own set of stated limits) then I can see no reason why this wouldn't be possible.

Now that I have that out of my system, my first question to the players would be why? Do you really hate roleplaying (or my GMing abilities) that much that you would rather destroy any opportunity that I can give you to roleplay? This kind of thing would be pointless.

[bibliophile20]

When the players go for such things, I am quite sure that they are asking for the potion to grant them not just the access to gain such powers but also the ability to pay for them without losing their sense of self and free will.

GM: "Okay, you just gave yourself Phenomenal Cosmic Power for the next half a year. That means..."
Players who were involved in the creation of the potion: "That means for the next half-a-year, until it wears off, my character temporarily gets enough Refresh so that he is not an NPC. What were you saying again?"

Last I checked, gaining Refresh is the prerogative of the GM, not the PC.  They're called Milestones and are granted by the GM, never the player.  If a player were to say that to me, I'd first call shenanigans, and then call that player aside for a little talk about game balance. 

And as for the ability to pay for them without losing their sense of self and free will... that's the thing about power.  It corrupts.  And suddenly gaining power like this is the sort of test of personal character that has been the subject of stories for as long as mankind has been telling stories.  The line at which point they are using power becomes the power using them is defined as zero refresh, although I could probably make a solid argument to the effect of the pursuit of power inherent in the ritual itself having its own corrupting effect even before completion, depending on how singleminded they were about completing it. 

[toturi]

Last I checked, gaining Refresh is the prerogative of the GM, not the PC.  They're called Milestones and are granted by the GM, never the player.  If a player were to say that to me, I'd first call shenanigans, and then call that player aside for a little talk about game balance.  

The last time I checked the only 2 things that the GM decides with respect to Refresh are Milestones and Power levels.

Depending on how many players were in favor of and worked on such a spell, well... there are a number of players and not just a player.

[devonapple]

The last time I checked the only 2 things that the GM decides with respect to Refresh are Milestones and Power levels.

Depending on how many players were in favor of and worked on such a spell, well... there are a number of players and not just a player.

That sort of disconnect on how powerful the characters were going to be would hopefully have been worked out during City and Character Creation, when the GM said "Hey, let's play a 7-Refresh game" and the players were all "No, we want to have 20-Refresh characters and our own cult."

[sjksprocket]

At that point I'd probably ask: "why play?"

I think that this thread needs a good quote. Something like "now this is just getting silly". (i think that's how it goes. Monty python fans, feel free to correct me)

[sinker]

I've been thinking about this for a bit and I realized that there could be some good in this kind of thing just as with a ritual of that power. One could send the party about on a quest to find rare and important ingredients and then find the support that would be necessary to create some sort of wish potion all for some deep role-playing reason (like in Death Masks

(click to show/hide)

with Marcone and the Beckett's daughter

).

[devonapple]

I've been thinking about this for a bit and I realized that there could be some good in this kind of thing just as with a ritual of that power. One could send the party about on a quest to find rare and important ingredients and then find the support that would be necessary to create some sort of wish potion all for some deep role-playing reason (like in Death Masks

(click to show/hide)

with Marcone and the Beckett's daughter

).

Well, yes, your example is a fine example of a plot-motivated quest-type scenario which happens to take the form of a ritual that is making something, and if the GM makes it a part of the story, then I think it's alright.

The original post seemed more concerned with Munchkin-type behavior, player-proposed efforts to bend the rules to gather a lot of power.

[bibliophile20]

The original post seemed more concerned with Munchkin-type behavior, player-proposed efforts to bend the rules to gather a lot of power.

Agreed.  One of the themes of the game and the series is the pursuit of power; to pull in a really good quote, "I have seen what power does.  And I have seen what power costs.  One never equals the other."  

So if someone tries to sidestep that, as in Toturi's example, I, personally, would have a talk with them that, if they are particularly stubborn about it, might end with me announcing to the gaming club that there is now an opening.  

EDIT: Really, this is just common gamer courtesy; you do not, or at least should not, try to break the game.  Just as in D&D you do not insist on playing Pun-Pun, or try to cast the Detect City Bomb, or any of those other fun theoretical concepts.  Same here.  No trying to cast ascension rituals and then try to avoid the costs associated. 

[mostlyawake]

The original post seemed more concerned with Munchkin-type behavior, player-proposed efforts to bend the rules to gather a lot of power.

Mostly.  It was an observation that, by RAW and discussions here (which have generally stated that potions CAN exceed the lorex2 limit), this is actually plausible.  It's a check to see if I am missing anything, in case one of my players wants to make a more modest 18 strength potion or the like.   

The "lorex2" part seems to be very debate-able, and from all of my scouring here it appears not to apply to potions.
The "max of 13" is in the books, but NOT the RPG rules. Thus, not valid for what is/is not possible within the system.

Taking someone's character is such a D move, that I give the characters an explicit chance to not do something.  Like, if they are casting an attack spell at someone that they don't know ISN'T mortal, I say "Just to be sure, you are telling me that you are using magic to attack with lethal force something that might be mortal, and if you kill it, you could end up taking a Lawbreaker stunt, which would make you an NPC. Are you sure you want to do this?"

Similarly, when presented with the necromicon, and after opening it and reading from it, I say "Your options here are to pass our as your brain suffers a minor hemorrage, thus NOT taking a lawbreaker stunt, or to read the information provided, and gain the lawbreaker stunt for Outsider knowledge."


So, I'm not down with the "AH HAAA I GOT YOUR CHARACTER!" trick.

Really, I mean, it's going to take a hell of a power base (50 cultists) that I can easily tank down with the White Council, making everyone afraid to ally with you.  So, munchkin-wise, I trust myself as a GM that I can legitimately, "realistically" counter the threat. 

The question is, what; rules-wise, prevents this behavior?   Even a 30-shift potion means instant death to someone...

[devonapple]

The "lorex2" part seems to be very debate-able, and from all of my scouring here it appears not to apply to potions.

It all depends on whether you consider a potion to be subset of "enchanted item" or a similar but differentiable item.

YS 278:
"There are two basic kinds of magical items: focus items and enchanted items... enchanted items store energy and release it again in some predetermined manner, sort of like a “spell in a box.”...

Potions and their ilk are a kind of fire-and-forget enchanted item. They store energy, but once consumed, the energy is used up and the item is effectively destroyed."

If we then factor in YS 280 (as has been quoted earlier but is requoted here for convenience):
"Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage."

And also YS 280:
"Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effect strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly or at the time it is created with the invocation of aspects."

The bit in bold seems more clearly to express *when* that boost can come into play (giving you the narrative freedom to increase its effectiveness in response to the plot, rather than having to bean-count and plan ahead). I feel it to be a stretch to use it to justify the unlimited addition of Aspects, and so "good rationale and a ton of baggage" would still apply.

Edit: And as a bonus, "You may choose to take a compel in order to get this bonus for free, but that means the GM can introduce that compel at any time later without giving you the opportunity to refuse—you’ve already agreed to it by taking the additional strength for the potion. In general, only one such “pay-it-forward” compel should be allowed at a time."

The game offers explicit permission to go into Fate Point Debt to boost a potion, but advocates limiting it to once per potion. Although one could potentially argue that the rules are allowing multiple "pay-it-forward" but limiting GM compels, it is a weak argument: if this was the intent, then the rules would have been phrased more clearly to reflect the GM/player relationship - as it stands, I contend that the "pay-it-forward" limit applies to the potion-making/modifying.