Author Topic: Wererhino: The Catch?  (Read 10542 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 06:26:05 AM »
Well, some weapons suffer from overpenentration when they're used on fragile things like people. If the bullet goes right through you, that's wasted energy. If the creature's toughness is based on size rather than durability, then weapons that would just be overkill against people (like anti-tank weapons or elephant guns) become the only way to go.

That's why I give REALLY big things a catch of "weapons rated 6 or higher." Because no matter how skilled you are, you can't really hurt something 500 metres long with a sword. You could stick your sword in so deep that your shoulder gets stuck in the monster's skin and it would just be a pinprick.

I figure the same principle applies to something that's mundanely humungous.

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 08:33:15 AM »
That's why I give REALLY big things a catch of "weapons rated 6 or higher." Because no matter how skilled you are, you can't really hurt something 500 metres long with a sword. You could stick your sword in so deep that your shoulder gets stuck in the monster's skin and it would just be a pinprick.

Or you could just stab it in the eye. A place that, nomatter how large a creature is, has no more than 6 inches of space between the outer edge and the brain (and unarmored at that). This is the logic that comes into play when you manage to overcome a creatures toughness with a weapon that couldn't reasonably penetrate its armor.
  In anycase thats not an argument for greater weapon ratings satisfying the catch. Greater weapon ratings are just more likely to do damage anyway, they don't ignore the armor. Thats just double taxation, and it makes no sense.
  Weapons with a higher weapon rating, have that rating because they are more likely to do damage to armored things. Thats already covered in the weapon stats. 

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 08:54:08 AM »
Stabbing in the eye works for mortal creatures. Not so much for zombies, vampires, demons, elementals and similar beings that don't have vulnerable parts, don't have functional internal anatomy, don't bleed or feel shock so minor wounds won't kill them and so on.


A leviathan, that is both a supernatural entity and the size of a battleship, is not going to even be annoyed at the efforts of a speck armed with a sword.

Offline sjksprocket

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 100
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 04:12:50 PM »
I would go with something like fire as well. like already previously stated a big weapon shouldn't be a catch due to the fact that the reason it's so effective is the massive damage and not that it ignores there natural toughness. I would go with a +2 or +3 for fire myself. It's easy to come by and rather obvious.
"The door is ajar"

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 06:00:15 PM »
Stabbing in the eye works for mortal creatures. Not so much for zombies, vampires, demons, elementals and similar beings that don't have vulnerable parts, don't have functional internal anatomy, don't bleed or feel shock so minor wounds won't kill them and so on.


A leviathan, that is both a supernatural entity and the size of a battleship, is not going to even be annoyed at the efforts of a speck armed with a sword.
   And as I've already said, in what way does making large weapons a catch portray this? It doesn't. The small weapons are still just as likely to cause damage as they ever where, and all your doing is taking a class of weapons that already had rules to cover the massive damage they do, and doubling their effectiveness for no logical reason.
    The zombie argument is just plain wrong as whether or not the zombie needs its brain to live, it still needs its eyes to see. If you blow its head off, whether it remains animated or not, its taken out. Thats why Zombies have toughness and not immunity, they can still be taken out by anything.
    The Leviathan example is also irrelevant, as it would have immunity. If you're flat out immune to all lesser damage then setting the catch as "Antitank weapons" is fine.
   As an aside, the effectiveness of a weapon for satisfying a catch, should never be based on its game stats. saying, "weapon rating 6+" doesn't make any sense, as a warden sword and some items of power are weapon 6 and still aren't big enough to overcome the armor in those examples.

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 06:36:56 PM »
Actually, if you blow a zombie's head off, it will fall down (be taken out). As soon as the combat is "over" the zombie will immediately stand up and try to rip you apart, despite its extreme consequence of "head blown off".

That's because Zombie is a living dead being. Unless its body is entirely destroyed or other special means are used (i.e. the necromancy fueling it is countered) the zombie cannot die, regardless of how many holes you put into it. As soon as you acheive takeout and the combat is over, stress clears and it stands up again and again until you hack it apart piece by piece.

(vampires, revenants, some possessed bodies and other wierder monsters are also like that)

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 06:58:26 PM »
Actually, if you blow a zombie's head off, it will fall down (be taken out). As soon as the combat is "over" the zombie will immediately stand up and try to rip you apart, despite its extreme consequence of "head blown off".

That's because Zombie is a living dead being. Unless its body is entirely destroyed or other special means are used (i.e. the necromancy fueling it is countered) the zombie cannot die, regardless of how many holes you put into it. As soon as you acheive takeout and the combat is over, stress clears and it stands up again and again until you hack it apart piece by piece.

(vampires, revenants, some possessed bodies and other wierder monsters are also like that)
 no. it will stand up and fumble about uselessly and nonthreateningly, since it has no way to sense you but touch. It may be alive, but its no threat without a head.
   In addition to that the combat isn't "over" till the scene is over. most of the time, by the time the zombie gets back up, you're somewhere else.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 07:01:51 PM by Nyarlathotep5150 »

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 07:52:29 PM »
Says who? A zombie's eyes are already rotten off and their brains are dead - they aren't using those sensory organs for seeing things. They are entirely directed by the will and commands of the necromancer and cannot act on their own anyway.

Now, if you shot the necromancer's head off instead...

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 08:14:33 PM »
I'd rule that staggering around uselessly is a compel of the HEAD BLOWN OFF extreme consequence.

As for the big monsters and their catch, I would argue that really powerful weapons are actually more effective against big things than their effectiveness against people would indicate. If you shoot a person with an anti-tank missle, most of the damage is uselessly wasted. If you shoot an elephant, the elephant's greater size means that it will absorb more of the blast wave.

As for the Leviathan's catch, I said "weapon rating 6+" because I like to put things in terms of game rules. This may or may not have been the right decision, but I'm not going to lose much sleep over it either way. Feel free to change it if you ever happen to use the Leviathan in your games.

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 08:33:41 PM »
Says who? A zombie's eyes are already rotten off and their brains are dead - they aren't using those sensory organs for seeing things. They are entirely directed by the will and commands of the necromancer and cannot act on their own anyway.

Now, if you shot the necromancer's head off instead...

   First, the books specifically say that they do use their brains and they do think. Its only a rudimentary level of thought, but but it is their own. It causes them to think the necromancers drumming is their heart and THAT is what gives the necromancers will control over them. This fact is proven by the fact that stopping the drumming or killing the Necromancer doesn't kill the Zombie, it just sets it free.
   And saying that they could sense just as well without their sensory organs is just dumb. By that logic they can run just as well with no legs and grapple just as well with no arms. They either are physical beings or they aren't. If they are then the state of the body matters. If not then they have physical immunity.... and they don't. 

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 09:35:26 PM »
You can't force something/someone to take consequences unless you specifically attack it after you take it out. So if the zombie is taken out, it simply falls down - unless you specifically attack its head once it is down, it can simply choose not to take the "blown off head" consequence.

Secondly, anyone aware of the supernatural can use the Lore skill to use their "inner eye" instead of physical senses at least in a general way.

Third, if someone's eyes and brain are rotten off and they are animated by an animal spirit, I'd say it is the animal spirit that is doing the seeing and thinking - but not the walking and grasping.

Offline hank the ancient

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 426
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 03:08:27 AM »
Rhino's do have piss-poor eyesight. you could make the character damn near blind in the shifted form. Maybe even put a bit of a kurosawa blind samuai spin on it.

Offline Peteman

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2010, 05:28:51 AM »
I don't think natural creatures should have supernatural based toughness powers. We should probably expand the Hulking Size powers to allow a Large Size that's between normal and Hulking, and maybe include a "tough hide" power that is size dependent and only applies to the 3.5 DND Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing style of damage.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2010, 05:44:43 AM »
Why shouldn't animals have toughness powers?

Offline toturi

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 734
    • View Profile
Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2010, 08:50:03 AM »
Why shouldn't animals have toughness powers?
Maybe people against that are just hung up on "Powers" being supernatural.
First, the books specifically say that they do use their brains and they do think.
Since the books specifically say that, then perhaps you could state chapter and verse.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear