Focused Practitioner vs Wizard

[Quazar]

Besides the cool thematic reasons, are there any mechanical benefits for choosing an FP over a Wizard?

As the rules stand, it seems like even a pyromancer would be schooled by a wizard with fire as a specialization.  You can't even take Refinements for specialization, as a Channeler.  This may be only my impression, but I always thought ectomancers and pyromancers, etc., should be better at their particular element than a wizard would be.  But for just an extra -1 makes the sorcerer/wizard gets 2 extra elements and a specialization, plus the potential for even greater influence over that particular element by adding Refinements.

That seems odd.  Why wouldn't an FP at least be able to purchase Refinements for its element?  What do y'all think?

[MijRai]

You can take focus items from Refinement. The idea is that you aren't formally trained or you don't have the strength to specialize, otherwise you'd be there already.

[Quazar]

But mechanically, you understand what I mean?  There must have been some kind of rationale from Evil Hat or one of the betas that prompted it.

You're already specializing, why not further develop that specialization?

[Slife]

You can take focus items from Refinement. The idea is that you aren't formally trained or you don't have the strength to specialize, otherwise you'd be there already.

But isn't Mort better than Harry at his particular ectomancy schtick?

[MijRai]

Focus items. Mort could easily afford a half dozen focus items, all to ectomancy. Pulling off +7 or +8 complexity rituals in a single round is very nice. Maybe he has stunts to use Contacts to help with his rolls (talking to dead drinking buddies to pick up on information), or he has some other trick up his sleeve. Finally, with his ectomanctic skills, he should have plenty of invokable aspects that apply to his use of magic. Harry might have one aspect to use when doing ectomancy. Mort would have two or three.

[Tsunami]

The highest bonus an FP could achieve from refinement is +1/+2 (one of those being power, one being control) anyways, since he has no more elements/ritual areas with which to build a pyramid.
That's a bonus alright, but in the grand scheme of things it's mostly negligible.

In the Dresdenverse, Wizards are supposed to be the pinnacle of mortal magic.
A skilled ectomancer like Mort, is able to better commune with the spirits than Harry, because Harry himself has no practical experience in the matter. Were Harry to concentrate on learning how to commune with ghosts, he'd leave Mort in the dust in no time.

That's part of what the specialization pyramid is about. It expresses the fact that practitioners with a full talent are way more powerful than FPs.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

The highest bonus an FP could achieve from refinement is +1/+2 (one of those being power, one being control) anyways, since he has no more elements/ritual areas with which to build a pyramid.
That's a bonus alright, but in the grand scheme of things it's mostly negligible.

In the Dresdenverse, Wizards are supposed to be the pinnacle of mortal magic.
A skilled ectomancer like Mort, is able to better commune with the spirits than Harry, because Harry himself has no practical experience in the matter. Were Harry to concentrate on learning how to commune with ghosts, he'd leave Mort in the dust in no time.

That's part of what the specialization pyramid is about. It expresses the fact that practitioners with a full talent are way more powerful than FPs.

I was under the impression that Focus Items did not follow that pyramid.

Also, let us not forget that having extra fate points is a heck of a bonus.

[MijRai]

Focus Items do skip the pyramid, although they are limited to your Lore, I believe. Them being taken away is a pain though. What Tsunami says is why they did it this way. If you don't like it, house-rule it. But I would also house-rule that once you take specialization into Channeling or Ritual, you can't get Evocation or Thaumaturgy, because you specialized too early, thus stunting your growth in other directions.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Focus Items do skip the pyramid, although they are limited to your Lore, I believe. Them being taken away is a pain though. What Tsunami says is why they did it this way. If you don't like it, house-rule it. But I would also house-rule that once you take specialization into Channeling or Ritual, you can't get Evocation or Thaumaturgy, because you specialized too early, thus stunting your growth in other directions.

Ooh, I like that idea. I might have to offer that to the budding ectomancer in my group.

[Quazar]

A skilled ectomancer like Mort, is able to better commune with the spirits than Harry, because Harry himself has no practical experience in the matter. Were Harry to concentrate on learning how to commune with ghosts, he'd leave Mort in the dust in no time.

Well I think that's pretty stupid if true.  I suppose I'll just have to house-rule it.  C'est la vie.

I do like the idea of taking Evocation or Thaumaturgy off the table when you buy refinements.  Seems like a good balance, though I'd probably say you could take a couple before limiting yourself.

[MijRai]

Well I think that's pretty stupid if true.  I suppose I'll just have to house-rule it.  C'est la vie.

I do like the idea of taking Evocation or Thaumaturgy off the table when you buy refinements.  Seems like a good balance, though I'd probably say you could take a couple before limiting yourself.

It is true, for one. Grave Peril speaks of it. Mortimer has practice and experience. His native talent isn't that good (or he'd have been picked up by the White Council), and he does it most often. He's done the work to get better then Harry. He's like a 6' middle-weight who has been studying martial-arts for years as far as ectomancy goes. Harry is the 8 foot tall giant with fists of steel and skin like stone who has almost no training whatsoever, but enough muscle to eat rocks, shit bricks, and then build a mansion out of it.

I'd limit it to one Refinement tp Channeling or Ritual for specialization before cutting it off, if you do it. A single Refinement gets them a +1 Power and Control for their chosen path.

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, I've been toying with the idea of an improved version of Channeling that would cost 3 refresh. Do you think that sacrificing focus slots and the ability to take Refinement for foci in exchange for a second free specialization and the ability to ignore the pyramid is fair?

This power was intended as a way to model high-level telekinesis and superhero-style elemental control, but if balanced it would also be a good power for an extremely skilled Focused Practitioner. It could work the same way for Ritual, of course, which would be much less powerful.

[Quazar]

8 foot tall bruiser is not going to become a expert ballerino in a few months just because he's strong and athletic.  That takes decades of practice.  Spreading your talents, even when they are larger in sum, makes you inferior to specialists when restricted to a particular discipline.  That's just the way the world works.  Dresden points out how work it has taken for him to able to throw up even the simplest rough and ready veil.  There's no way he just picks up ectomancy and starts showing Lindquist up.

Your idea makes sense to me Sanctaphrax.  Particularly if you're going to charge -3 for it.

[Drashna]

Quazar, you hit on something here.  The book talks about the subtly thing being a compel of an aspect. In harry's case, "not so subtle". Which would absolutely apply here.  Not to mention, I would expect Mort to always invoke his high concept (and probably his trouble aspect) every time. 

Also, don't really need to change refinement.  Think about it this way, Mort always has some tools he uses to talk to ghosts. Maybe a crystal ball, maybe some very specific candles. Very specific items.  In fact, every specialist is going to have some tools unique to his field/calling.  They are focus items. It makes sense.  heck, even in the baltimore examples, there is the "hydromancer" that has his trusty slide rule, and it's a focus item. 

[Wolfwood2]

Besides the cool thematic reasons, are there any mechanical benefits for choosing an FP over a Wizard?

The extra refresh you don't have to spend.

That said, I do want to address why it's that way thematically in-universe.  The idea is that magic isn't discrete blocks but rather a broad field of knowledge whose various facets blend into each other.  Knowing how to use Water can make you better at using Fire, because you understand how the fluid aspects of fire act.  Knowing how to set Veils can make you better at Wards, because now you understand the parts of Wards that act like Veils a little better.

A "specialist" isn't someone who knows only about his little area of specialization and no other.  That's like saying that, for example, a specialist in Middle Ages history is someone who knows nothing about other historical periods.  That's not how it works.  First you get a broad education on all historical fields, then you go learn more about the specific field that interests you.  Ignorance doesn't make you superior.  A true Specialist is someone who understands the broad area of knowledge and then goes on to focus intently on the particular area that interests him.

So for example, the true specialist Ectomancer would be someone who has Thaumaturgy (so he's learned how Wards and Summoning work in general) and has taken three Refinements in being better at Ectomancy.  He is going to be much more awesome than some guy who never got a proper education to begin with and is just sort of winging it on Ectomancy and nothing else.