Setting up a ward how do you get all the shifts?

[Runhide]

It looks like you can pump a lot of extra shifts into a Thaumaturgy spell and one of the most common spells that I see this in is wards. What justifies these extra shifts and how do you control them?  Is it from taking hours or days to create it?  What is the upper limit if that is the case?

Temp 30 pt 8 refresh Character
   +5 Lore, Conviction
   +4 Discipline, Endurance
   +3 Weapons,Athletics
   +2 Resources, Scholarship
   +1 Survival, Investigation

Evocation -3
Thaumaturgy -3
The Sight -1
Soulgaze -0

Can you pump 30 shifts into a ward if you take days to set it up?  What would be the max this temp character would be able to put into a ward? Why? Whats the Math?

Ward 30 shifts: Base power 5  from Lore 5
Skip Scenes 19 Additional power (Y270)  ?
Symbolic links 6  +2 scraping from my anvil and workbench, +2 Scraping from the fence, +2 Scrapings of house and workshop, Some grass and bark from the trees, Dirt from yard  (Y267)
Complexity +2 Keyed entry:  Allows me in and out and to allow others . (Y276)
Complexity +5 last a few months, 5 increment change on Time table starting at all day for spell type (Y315 time table) (Y266 Starting point of all day)
 

[devonapple]

That's way too many skipped scenes.

A lot of those shifts can come from other Declarations, such as getting your mind in focus, acquiring magical props, drawing a really awesome ritual circle. and more.

[Runhide]

Ok I get that but what is the max and why?  That is the real question.

In addition you bring up another good question how many other +2’s can you add?  I would say that is a GM discretion issue.

[MijRai]

The maximum isn't really set, but you can rule common sense on it. It is pretty doubtful a plain jane ward attached to a middling threshold beats 10-15 in total complexity.

As to how many tags, you get as many that are justifiable thematically. For the friendly wizard, maybe 10 shifts. For the paranoid Warden or power-mad sorcerer, you can expect the ward to be... Stronger.

[devonapple]

Skipped scenes are supposed to be just that: skipped scenes in the game when your PC isn't doing anything else to further the plot.

As a general guideline, here is a quote from Fred Hicks:

"...at the end of the day, a spell is a story. The details aren’t there in order to illustrate pieces of a cosmic order, they’re there to show us what a wizard is willing to do in order to see his or her will manifested...

Preparation for thaumaturgy is no longer a shopping list of crap you have to go through – it’s an opportunity for you to tell the story of the spell. It’s just as much you sitting in a library paging through arcane tomes as it is you going to the convenience store to get your knowledge spirit some skin mags so he’ll give you some choice incantations. Magic is the wizard’s life."

- Fred Hicks, "Designer’s Corner: Thaumaturgy and the Value of Playtesters"
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/2010/04/27/designers-corner-thaumaturgy-and-the-value-of-playtesters/

[devonapple]

Also, this page has a great list of sample Lore Declarations you can make using most any skill you might possess, in order to make up the Lore deficit in a ritual's Complexity:

http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=639

[Runhide]

The maximum isn't really set, but you can rule common sense on it. It is pretty doubtful a plain jane ward attached to a middling threshold beats 10-15 in total complexity.

As to how many tags, you get as many that are justifiable thematically. For the friendly wizard, maybe 10 shifts. For the paranoid Warden or power-mad sorcerer, you can expect the ward to be... Stronger.

You mentioned wards needing a threshold or being dependant on one.  From what I can tell the argument is still ongoing but the proof I have read is that you do not need a threshold for a ward see examples A and B.  If you disagree with that the argument of wards interacting with thresholds is not ongoing they don’t.  When casting a ward on a threshold you do not get bonuses from it for the ward.  So you cannot base ward strength on the threshold.  Also Given the nature of magic if you did need a threshold to base a ward on you could just make an artificial one.   

Using the books as canon, Wards don't need to be tied to thresholds.

(click to show/hide)

Harry's bolt hole rented storage in Turn coat? doesn't have one for example.

[/quote]

(click to show/hide)

Neither did the wards the Merlin used to hold off a Red Court army.

[/quote]

[Sanctaphrax]

Concerning the thread question: there is no limit. The GM is expected to handle it without rules. A house rule is appropriate if this turns out to be a problem. I suggest increasing the difficulty to control the ritual as the complexity increases.

Concerning the thread itself: I'm not so thrilled to see threads devoted to single rules questions on the Resource Collection board. I think that we need a DFRPG Rules FAQ thread to deal with those questions. It should probably also include a basic rundown of the rules and some play examples.

I can put that thread up myself, but I'd be quite glad to have someone else do some/all of the work. Anyone who's interested should send me a message, so that I don't do unnecessary work.

[Watson]

As I interpret the rules in regards to Wards and complexity, a PC could without too much effort (from a rules perspective) create a Ward with a complexity of 50 (or more!), given that he gets enough time. There are no limits in terms of the number of Declarations a Wizard can make (as long as he can explain them from a narrative perspective), so making 25 Declarations (to get 50 shifts!) should be OK (as long as his GM is agreeing to it). It would also be perfectly safe to cast the ritual once the Wizard gets a Discipline of 5+ (as at this level, he can feed 1 Shift of power to the ritual per exchange, without risk failing the spell).

The fact that a Wizard can succeed with any ritual as long as he is given enough time (and can explain all the Declarations) is fine by me in general, but when it comes to Wards it seems a bit strange (as the Ward is stronger the higher the complexity, and there are no real rules to prevent a player from (using the example above) that it is possible to create a way over-powered Ward.

It’s a bit off topic (but in a way related to super-strong Wards), but why would a Wizard, given enough time, ever use Fate Points or Consequences when casting rituals (when one, technically, can make an unlimited number of Declaration “for free”)?

I am thinking about putting a limit on the number of Declarations one can make when casting a ritual, but at the same time, it doesn’t feel good to do that. One the other hand, I would very much like the players to use Fate Points or Consequences when casting rituals, but when they have “free” Declarations, I can’t see any player ever using Fate Points or Consequences (given the Wizard have enough time to cast the ritual in question).

[Ryan_Singer]

I am thinking about putting a limit on the number of Declarations one can make when casting a ritual, but at the same time, it doesn’t feel good to do that. One the other hand, I would very much like the players to use Fate Points or Consequences when casting rituals, but when they have “free” Declarations, I can’t see any player ever using Fate Points or Consequences (given the Wizard have enough time to cast the ritual in question).

You hint at it here. Harry doesn't need to use fate points or consequences for rituals while he's off the clock, but usually, in the middle of a story, he's under the gun.

[eberg]

As I interpret the rules in regards to Wards and complexity, a PC could without too much effort (from a rules perspective) create a Ward with a complexity of 50 (or more!), given that he gets enough time. There are no limits in terms of the number of Declarations a Wizard can make (as long as he can explain them from a narrative perspective), so making 25 Declarations (to get 50 shifts!) should be OK (as long as his GM is agreeing to it). It would also be perfectly safe to cast the ritual once the Wizard gets a Discipline of 5+ (as at this level, he can feed 1 Shift of power to the ritual per exchange, without risk failing the spell).

First, the Declarations take time and get harder the less inventive they are. By the time you get to your third "I buy some more magic herbs", you are rolling against Fantastic (+6) difficulty. Second, trying to channel 50 shifts of power would encourage me to do stuff like restrict the Discipline roll by Endurance or compel appropriate Aspects to raise the difficulty of the control roll. All it takes is one hiccup when you are fooling with that much power to transform yourself and your sanctum into a smoking crater.

[Drashna]

You should be able to get a couple aspect invokes pretty easily (wizard for one, and if you're paranoid. etc).  As for declarations, look at harry, each step he does for his major spells is a declaration.  You should be able to get 3-4 of these or more if you're creative. 


Just remember, the more shifts you have to control, the more dangerous it gets. one failed control check can kill you. Easily.  Picture this: you got a 50 shift spell, you've got 4 shifts left, and roll so poorly that you fail the control check.  Either way, your taking 46 shifts of damage, from fallout or backlash.   Say bye bye to your wizard.  That's the danger of bigger spells. So the pratical limit is the number of shifts of damage you can take.  Stress track + 20 (2 mild, 4 moderate, 6 serious, 8 extreme).

[Wyrdrune]

as for the 50 shifts ward... i would simply rule that the "natural" maximum is reached when the wizard has to sleep, no one can't reasonably stay up casting for several days.

[Drashna]

What if one of his aspects was "chronic insomniac"? 

I'd say that endurance comes into play here.  Which brings to mind, if the character had a recovery power, he'd be more able to stay up days. It's one of the trappings for Recovery.

[bibliophile20]

Temporary Aspect: High On Stimulants
Temporary Aspect: Eight Empty 2-Liter Bottles Of Mountain Dew
Temporary Aspect: It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed...

There, solved your problem for staying up...  (knows and knows of waaay too many computer geeks...)