Another Possible Rebate?

[MijRai]

I am curious as to what people think about a 'No Thumbs!' Power/Rebate. Not having thumbs (or similar grasping body parts) is extremely limiting in many cases. Can't pick stuff up normally (so no weapons), can't drive, can't even open a round-knobbed door! I think this should be something you get points back for. So I am suggesting a Rebate for it.

My idea is that it only applies when you can't have a grasping body part. If you have shapechanging, you don't get it, since you most likely have a form change that would suffice. If you qualify, you aren't human, so that means this rebate would not stack with Pure Mortal.
My main question is what it would give back. +1, +2? Maybe even +3?

As far as who would get it, I'd say snakes and other full-time animal forms (not including primates) are the main recipients. Others can come up with different Rebate recieving creatures.

[Sanctaphrax]

The current rules would imply that the best way to model that is to take an aspect that will get compelled a lot. The problem (or maybe upside) inherent to that approach is that you can buy out of compels.

Also, the compel based method doesn't allow you to take extra powers/stunts. So there's that.

I think I prefer to use aspects for things like this.

[TheMouse]

I'm generally against having flaw systems where you get points back for having some disadvantage. They push play toward one-armed, colour blind ninjas who never learned to read.

Instead, just task an Aspect for that. You'll get juicy Fate Points whenever it's a disadvantage.

[deathwombat]

No thumbs is not that much of a disadavantage with the right attitude and training

Can drive wield weapons and all manner pf things jsut have to do it differently.
Hitchhikingis difficult though.

[MijRai]

No thumbs is not that much of a disadavantage with the right attitude and training

Can drive wield weapons and all manner pf things jsut have to do it differently.
Hitchhikingis difficult though.

How does a bird shoot a gun, or drive a stick shift (or an automatic, the brakes are pretty far down there).

Most human weapons and devices are built with fingers and thumbs in mind.

The problem with an Aspect is that you can buy out of it, and shazam! the kitty just gunned you down with a Mac-10.

The only way I see this power being used anyways is with something like a human cursed into animal form, or a wolf-were without the Were. Or a Malk-type faerie/Mouse-type scion.

I'd say there is a difference between a lack of digits and being color-blind and illiterate. With one, you can't do the action at all. The others are just impairments, and minor ones at that.

[sinker]

The problem with an Aspect is that you can buy out of it, and shazam! the kitty just gunned you down with a Mac-10.

My thought is why would you make this an aspect and then buy out of a compel? Seems to me that if you're buying out of a compel like this without a damn good reason then your GM might need to have a discussion with you about the meaning of role-playing.

[Falar]

I'm fairly sure you could use a handgun with a two-handed grip. It wouldn't be pretty and possibly would be downright uncomfortable, but you'd be able to do it. It'd probably come down to something like a thumbs-forward grip without thumbs? Possibly.

On the other hand, custom built gun handle is also a possibility and would probably alleviate the problem as well. In fact, with a little monkey-rigging, most of the problems you mention go away. Which means that it wouldn't be worth a point of refresh gained back because you could custom-build your most used equipment (oh, and make it an aspect that you do this) and you'd never have a real reason to be uncomforted.

Too abusable. Go with the aspect. Fate Point machines >>>>>>> +1 Refresh.

[MijRai]

I'm fairly sure you could use a handgun with a two-handed grip. It wouldn't be pretty and possibly would be downright uncomfortable, but you'd be able to do it. It'd probably come down to something like a thumbs-forward grip without thumbs? Possibly.

On the other hand, custom built gun handle is also a possibility and would probably alleviate the problem as well. In fact, with a little monkey-rigging, most of the problems you mention go away. Which means that it wouldn't be worth a point of refresh gained back because you could custom-build your most used equipment (oh, and make it an aspect that you do this) and you'd never have a real reason to be uncomforted.

Too abusable. Go with the aspect. Fate Point machines >>>>>>> +1 Refresh.

So you are saying they can make custom grips for dogs to go shooting? That big eagle carries a modified trench gun? The whole idea for this power is to give a rebate to animal only forms for the most part (Another idea would be to it giving a rebate to items with things inside that can't reliably affect the world, like a Denarius, magic book with someone trapped inside, etc.). The human turned into a cockatiel, the wolf-were that doesn't know how to shift to human yet. It doesn't affect just guns too. They can't drive, they can't open round-knobbed doors, they most likely have trouble communicating. If they don't look at all human (or even have the silhouette), how are they going to get along in society (what with leash laws and such)?

[devonapple]

The Physical Limitation "No Fine Manipulation" in HERO system (used mostly for animals and other creatures with similar limitations) is commonly worth about -15 points. A Refresh point of powers in DFRPG roughly maps to about 10-15 points of abilities in HERO, as far as i can estimate. I wouldn't recommend any rebate for this give back more than +1.

[knnn]

So you are saying they can make custom grips for dogs to go shooting?

"The right to arm bears!"

[devonapple]

But what if an evil mastermind decides to put lasers on some sharks? Or at least some mutated, ill-tempered sea bass? Do they get the "No thumbs" rebate then?

[MijRai]

But what if an evil mastermind decides to put lasers on some sharks? Or at least some mutated, ill-tempered sea bass? Do they get the "No thumbs" rebate then?

Uh, they are fish. They can't leave the water, even. The don't even have appendages for walking. I think so. Didn't someone make a Rebate to Aquatic for being totally aquatic, i.e. can't breathe air? Either way, ze feesh, zey get ze rebate. Wizards need hex-chow every now and then anyways.

I think Flipper the man-turned-dolphin by the Orca-Sorcerer deserves a bit of recompense, correct?

[luminos]

Only give the rebate if you you can provide real, defined, mechanical downsides to the thing, before play starts.  If its something that you have to decide if its a disadvantage situation by situation, its an aspect, not a refresh point.

[Arcteryx]

I'm going to have to chime in on the side of Aspects to deal with this. My view on it is, FATE is just not granular enough to deal with nit-finicky things of this like. In the example of fish, or dogs, well... the High Concepts would be Laser-Toting Shark, and Trained Wardog. Both imply lack of thumb-fu.

That tells everyone that if you're in water, the shark is a deadly laser-totin' machine, and if you get run down by one of them trained wardogs, he's gonna be gnawing on your hip bone. Poking a well-manicured thumb in your eye... meh, not so much.

The best example in support I can think of is how a Temple Dog (OW80) is mentioned as a possible PC option. And I also like what the blue sticky says: Bit of a RP challenge, but some folks might be up for it!