Held at gun point

[Watson]

After reading the section in Blood Rites, where Harry is being held at gun point by a, presumably unskilled, shooter I started to think about how to handle that situation in the game. In the book, Harry is afraid of being killed by a single shot, before he can put up his defense magic, so I thought that the same feeling should be able to be created in the RPG.

Going by the book, Harry should not be afraid of getting killed by a single bullet (which is odd). Even if the shooter (not named here, not to spoil some of the story) has had time to place some Aspects on Harry or himself/herself, a single bullet can technically not kill some one, even in that situation.

How would you handle it, to make it a lethal situation for PC in the same situation? Would you assume that the PC is already assumed to be “taken out” (meaning that the NPC would be able to kill him right away, without rolling the dice)? Any other ideas?

[Wilder]

One, figure that the aspects of "Point Blank Range" and "In my sights" are applied. Thats +4 right there, a weapon 2 and a Fair +2 gun skill. With the best roll possible, your looking at a possible 10 shifts plus a weapon 2. So if Harry rolls bad, he's getting approx 8 shifts of damage, thats going to hurt a mortal any day of the week.

[Papa Gruff]

After reading the section in Blood Rites, where Harry is being held at gun point by a, presumably unskilled, shooter I started to think about how to handle that situation in the game. In the book, Harry is afraid of being killed by a single shot, before he can put up his defense magic, so I thought that the same feeling should be able to be created in the RPG.

Going by the book, Harry should not be afraid of getting killed by a single bullet (which is odd). Even if the shooter (not named here, not to spoil some of the story) has had time to place some Aspects on Harry or himself/herself, a single bullet can technically not kill some one, even in that situation.

How would you handle it, to make it a lethal situation for PC in the same situation? Would you assume that the PC is already assumed to be “taken out” (meaning that the NPC would be able to kill him right away, without rolling the dice)? Any other ideas?

I guess it comes down to narration. If the players are over confident and don't fear getting shot anymore something is going very wrong. There should be talk about it at the gaming table. Bullets kill. Period. Everybody is supposed to be afraid of them. Even some of the most evil supernatural baddies can be shot dead easily enough. That said, I'd see it as good RP if my players act appropriate to gun threads, even if they technically can take the stress it offers easy enough. I probably give them a FP in form of an auto compel for it.

Also: always remember that stress isn't damage. It's a fluent mechanic. As the player is supposed to be the hero of the story he might be perfectly able to explain or narrate an action, that allows him to survive the gunshot.

In the out of conflict scenario you described, where the player has obviously been overcome before, I would follow your conclusion that he is already taken out. All that follows can be seen as narration of the taken out result.

If the table absolutely wants to create a rule for this, I'd probably go for a variant of the ambush rules. Allow the attacker to set up some aspects ala "At gunpoint", "In my sights" or "Don't make a move" and allow the player a dodge roll at mediocre against the guns roll of the shooter. That should be intimidation enough.

[Tsunami]

In Blood Rites, Harry not being able to move at that point is a compel.
Trixie placed an aspect on Harry "Held at gunpoint" And the "GM" compelled it forcing him to not be able to act until it was to late.
Seeing as how not acting actually brought him a lot more complications in the course of the book, it fits that mechanic really well.

Anything else is narration.

[Dumbledresden]

In Harrys case, his defensive capabilities were reduced to a minimum, which is very similar to the outcome of a successful ambush in game terms, therefore I would compare "being held at gunpoint" to a successful ambush, maybe even understand it as the outcome or description of a successful ambush, nothing else.

[Belial666]

Also note that, while bullets are deadly, they are not nearly as deadly as people think;

1) Unless it hits tomething really vital, a single bullet isn't going to kill. People have survived being shot over a dozen times.
2) The shot/death ratio in most combat situations is close to 200/1 for both military and urban conflicts, the exception being snipers and ambushes.



Harry even comments on the inaccuracy and low deadliness of bullets a couple of times.

[Papa Gruff]

I thought we were talking held at gunpoint at point blank range here...

[Wilder]

I thought we were talking held at gunpoint at point blank range here...

That was my assumption as well. For yes, lots of shots miss or don't hit anything vital, but having someone at point blank range with no room to manuver is leaving little to chance. Besides, Trixie probably had a full magazine, and the will to use it.

To paraphrase Ron White "I don't know how many bullets it would take to kill me, but I knew how many he was gonna use."

[babel2uk]

To be fair the system just doesn't cover the sort of random death possibility inherent in that situation. In the book Harry lists numerous possibilities as to why he wouldn't be killed by Trixie's shot, and only mentions the possibility that it might kill him as a tiny possibility of a lucky shot. He's mostly concerned with talking her down so he can get information out of her and get to Emma in time.

If you want to model that random possibility of instant kill mechanically then you're probably looking at the wrong system. From a narrative persepective there's never really any doubt that Harry would survive the shot, only whether or not he'll be hampered by a bullet wound later on. As far as PCs performing one shot kills with a pistol goes, it's simply down to who they're shooting. A minor NPC will probably be killed outright with a single shot if the PC decides that's what they want to happen. A major NPC, not so likely to be killed by a single shot, even if you've got them cold. It just depends on how many consequences they're willing to take to do so.

For shooting if you've got the drop on someone the ambush rules seem appropriate.

[Belial666]

Please delete.

[Todjaeger]

Also note that, while bullets are deadly, they are not nearly as deadly as people think;

1) Unless it hits tomething really vital, a single bullet isn't going to kill. People have survived being shot over a dozen times.
2) The shot/death ratio in most combat situations is close to 200/1 for both military and urban conflicts, the exception being snipers and ambushes.

Harry even comments on the inaccuracy and low deadliness of bullets a couple of times.

Please keep in mind when discussing how deadly bullets/guns, there is a large difference between shots fired, and actual hits.  That is where the ~200:1 ratio comes in, in terms of rounds fired vs. actual hits.  In terms of game mechanics, that ratio is governed by the opposed skill test of shooter's Gun skill vs. target's Athletics skill dodge roll, modified by the appropriate Aspects for the scene and situation.

Once you get to looking at the effects of actual hits, a large number of people who have been shot do indeed die from the wound or otherwise get 'taken'.  I would need to hunt around for the statistics, but a round does not need to directly impact something vital in order for it to be fatal.
The 'shock' from the trauma a gunshot inflicts can cause cardiac arrest, even though the wound site isn't necessarily anywhere near the heart.

For who are interested in more specific information on the topic, you might want to take a look at the books titled Handgun Stopping Power or Street Stoppers, co-authored by Marshall and Sanow.

Now, one of the reasons why people who have been shot don't end up dying is due to the development (at least in militaries and advanced nations) of prompt medical treatment.  In most urban centers within the US, a gunshot victim is likely to be receiving treatment from EMTs/paramedics and enroute to a trauma center within ~10 minutes or less.  While they are enroute, the patients are typically not capable of doing much (i.e. they have been incapacitated or 'Taken Out').

[sinker]

Even the worst gunshots can be non-fatal sometimes. I have an uncle who survived a point-blank shot to the head. He isn't the brilliant genius he was before the shooting but he recovered and lives a perfectly normal life.

[zerogain]

In addition to the various aspects that might be in play, I consider someone held at gunpoint to be the equivalent of "ambushed" - so that the defender gets a Mediocre (+0) defense rating in addition to all of that.  If you are held at gunpoint and the shooter is at all competent then the shooter will have that gun close and pointed at an area that's going to hurt.

True, you might get away not-killed, but chances are for most folks you'll have a nasty consequence or two to live.

Assuming aspects, a fair roll, and a decent gun you might be at anywhere from a 5 to 10 shift attack.  I don't know about the rest of you but my characters are looking for concessions right about then.

[ralexs1991]

Even the worst gunshots can be non-fatal sometimes. I have an uncle who survived a point-blank shot to the head. He isn't the brilliant genius he was before the shooting but he recovered and lives a perfectly normal life.

major bamf i want to buy this man a drink

[Ranma1558]

Or you can consider the whole thing a social combat where the gun becomes an aspect or maneuver and not the 'threat'.