Author Topic: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?  (Read 2447 times)

Offline Monkey Bloke

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« on: November 29, 2010, 11:21:30 AM »
I posted a little while ago about thaumaturgy at speed in combat.
This specifically came up about wards.
In our game three hexenwolves came upon the PCs, but their howling game the PCs a little warning.
Given about 1 exchange the PCs fired up a strength 6 ward.
Fair enough, I figure that's fine, the Hexenwolves managed to tear through that (does weapon damage assist when damaging wards? I assume so).

Anyway then the idea came up that since a ward can last until sunrise, why not drop that for more strength?

Assuming a lore 5 and a focus item, you can default to a strength 6 ward without prep right? And assuming this will last for "An afternoon" and a combat isn't likely to take more than a few minutes, why not drop 5 levels of duration and pump that into strenght.
Then you still only need to control 6 shifts for an 11 strength ward, with a quick invoke that seems do-able in 1 or 2 exchanges.
Or to make it simpler, a 9 strength ward for 4 shifts of power.
Is this correct?

Why would anyone throw up an evocation block in the face of this?

Offline babel2uk

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 214
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 01:40:17 PM »
The rules define an exchange as being as little as 30 seconds, or as much as a few minutes. Thaumaturgy's big limitation is that the simplest spells take minutes to cast. My own POV on this is that Thaumaturgy exchanges always fall into the 'a few minutes' length, while combat defaults to 30 seconds. So while characters may have 'a couple of exchanges to react' that may only amount to a minute, while casting that ward may take 3 or 4 minutes - or you can rush through it in 2 (but that would obviously put the aspect of 'rushing it' on the spellcasting attempt  ;)). Obviously if the time the PCs have to prepare is 4 or 5 minutes then there's no real problem with them throwing up a simple ward, but the question then becomes why are they being given so much time and why would they spend it casting a ward when they could simply leave the area by other means?

The rulebook also states under the Optional rule that allows you to reduce complexity by sacrificing effect time:

The GM should also make it clear how short is too short—if the effect is shorter than a scene, why isn’t the wizard doing it with evocation?

Being able to perform a ritual with no prep isn't the same thing as being able to do it quickly. It just means that you have the materials with you to perform the ritual. Given the shortage of time you've really only got aspects to rely on if you need to boost the power. And there's always the chance that you'll need those fate points to re-roll the casting rolls.

Personally I never allow a Thaumaturgy spell (even a minor one) to be performed in under 4 exchanges in combat (so nothing less than about 2 minutes). It's not just the actual channelling of power you're dealing with, you need to take the time to create the circle and set up any ritual elements. Once you're performing the ritual you can't really take any other actions without breaking the ritual, and I'd be inclined to say that any dodges that require a great deal of movement will break the ritual as well.

Plus, Wards aren't portable. So no running away. And you've just shortened your ward's duration too... If you'd simply done an Evocation block you could either have the block against damage from the enemy while you run away (giving you shield or armour), or you could block their movement to give you a headstart. By comparison the ward comes in a shoddy second unless you absolutely have to remain where you are, and if you have to remain where you are then shortening the Ward duration isn't really an option because you'd want it to be in effect as long as possible, and you'll need to make it strong too because otherwise the enemy will simply break it down. Bear in mind they don't have to break it down, with a good enough roll, or a creative enough approach they could attack through it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 01:58:49 PM by babel2uk »

Offline crusher_bob

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 02:20:43 PM »
Also, wards, like the basic magic circle, are normally a two way proposition, while you can throw stuff out of evocation blocks just fine.

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 02:36:18 PM »
Things become even more interesting when you remember something else; an exchange is the time required for everyone to act once and defend against other people's actions.


So, in a gunfight, how long does it take for everyone to shoot once if they are not trying to take careful aim? (think gang wars here or heavy military action, not police or sniper action).  In that case an exchange would not take more than a few seconds.

Ditto for when a hungry monster is hunting you or a group of sword-bearing dudes want to decapitate you.

Offline MyNinjaH8sU

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 237
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 02:38:23 PM »
Anyway then the idea came up that since a ward can last until sunrise, why not drop that for more strength?

I personally would never allow this. You are getting free shifts out of a spell, and twisting the rules to give you something flat better than Evocation. I think that when Thaumaturgy can be used at the speed of evocation, but you are just making an attack, maneuver, block, or counter, then you are still just using evocation, and have to deal with it.

Alternatively, the player could absolutely throw up an 11-shift ward, provided they have a threshold, everything at hand, happen to start the ritual at the right time, has thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, and pay mental stress for an 11-shift spell :)

Really, I think a Ward just isn't a combat spell, and can't really be used as such, unless you are the goddamn Merlin.

Offline Drashna

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 09:03:53 AM »
Also, wards require a foundation to base upon. They need a threshold, or a suitable base (such as a ley line, oglam stones, I think it was, or something else that takes a long time to prepare), and non-threshold ones just don't hold as much power.
[qoute='piotr1600']Sure true love will conquer all... You sponsored an instant vision of a tentacled Cthuluoid monstrosity following Elaine around, meeping piteously and making puppy dog eyes at her while she sighs loudly and gently kisses those tentacles...[/qoute]

Offline Wyrdrune

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with quick wards... or... blocks, really?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 10:57:48 AM »
Quote
Why would anyone throw up an evocation block in the face of this?

i am with babel2uk and the others on the time needed for thaumaturgy so my players could only do it via evocation or sponsored magic that grants wards with the speed and methods of evocation, which has the downside/fun of potential debt.