Soulfire Spell Effects?

[MyNinjaH8sU]

I have a player in a new game I am running wanting to pick up Sponsored Magic: Soulfire, but not full Evocation or Thaumaturgy. He loves the idea, but hasn't ever read the books, so I was seeing if anyone was interested in starting a thread with Spell Effects for Soulfire?

The ones I can think of from the books:

- Giant solid hand to grab/attack.
- General boosting of spells

I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but it seems like between the description in YS, and the overall notion in the books, it might be easier to list things that Soulfire cannot do.

[Papa Gruff]

Hm ... Sponsored Magic: Soulfire is rather costly without the refund for evocation and thaumaturgy (-5 refresh I believe) ... but hey ... maybe it'll be fun. I'd say that Soulfire can do pretty much anything that is in line with it's sponsor a.k.a. the powers of heaven. That said it would follow more or less the same rules that restrict the knights of the cross.

Everything sinister is out of the question. Everything born out of pure aggression is out of the question unless it doesn't serve the protection of innocent mortals. Generally it seems to come down to doing rightful good. When we look at Harry, battling the forces of evil seems to be perfectly OK with the powers of heaven, but I guess Harry may be some kind of special exception when it comes to his soulfire... There should be a good reason why the PC can wield it I'd say...

[Belial666]

Depends on how the PC got it, really. Given by an archangel impressed by the character's awesomeness and tendency to inadvertedly do more good than evil while rampaging? Holy Devotion to the powers of Heaven like a saint? Inherited by their not so good Watcher of a parent?

[AcornArmy]

[ Spoilers for Changes ]

Everything sinister is out of the question. Everything born out of pure aggression is out of the question unless it doesn't serve the protection of innocent mortals. Generally it seems to come down to doing rightful good. When we look at Harry, battling the forces of evil seems to be perfectly OK with the powers of heaven, but I guess Harry may be some kind of special exception when it comes to his soulfire... There should be a good reason why the PC can wield it I'd say...

I can't see anything in the source books saying that you absolutely can't use soulfire in an act of pure aggression, or even out of malice.

(click to show/hide)

And Harry actually seems to do something very close to that in Changes, when he lashes out at the Red Court vamps in his office building.

At the risk of pissing people off for going off on another tangent which deals with stuff outside the rules of the RPG, I feel I should mention that the concept of soulfire as sponsored magic may not be entirely accurate, at least from what we've seen in the novels. This is just my own guess here, but, while Hellfire is definitely sponsored by a Fallen angel, Harry's soulfire seems to come entirely from within himself. He uses his own soul energy, his own magic, and his own skill to cast his soulfire spells. Uriel may have done something to give Harry whatever crucial piece of understanding that Harry was lacking in order to link his soul with his magic, but Uriel isn't the one supplying Harry with soul energy. Or anything else, as far as we know right now. Harry seems to be the one supplying all of the ingredients for the soulfire, with no further input from Uriel or anyone else.

With other sponsored magics, like what the Faerie Knights have, or Outsider possession, or Hellfire, the sponsor provides the necessary magical energy and sends it to the person they're sponsoring. In Harry's case, though, it's all down to him, so I don't see why a Higher Power would be getting involved. I mean, Uriel apparently got involved initially when he created the link between Harry's soul and Harry's consciousness, or his soul and his magic, or whatever it was that Uriel did; but, beyond that, I don't see any evidence of further involvement.

And if that's the case, then there may not be any direct influence by Heavenly powers while using soulfire. In fact, thinking about it-- if someone could create soulfire using their own soul, like Harry can, then I don't see why they couldn't conceivably change that soulfire into Hellfire someday. There might be a reason, like some fundamental difference between mortals and angels that causes an angel's soulfire to become Hellfire when they go bad, but we haven't got any clear evidence of that yet. Barring any such evidence, it seems possible that someone could go far enough into the Dark Side that their soulfire turned into Hellfire.

That's just a wild-ass guess on my part, though. I may be completely wrong about this possibility.

[tymire]

Also think of it this way.  Putting requirements on how it's used would violate free will, and it's been shown that that's the one thing any "agents of heaven" will do.  Which is probably why it's considered so rare, they want to be sure before it's "gifted". 

Don't have books handy, but isn't it required to have at least channelling or ritual to pick up soulfire?  I know it's not for the other sponsered magics....  The books call it rebar, but well without concrete, rebar by itself doesn't do much  .

[Buscadera]

Don't have books handy, but isn't it required to have at least channelling or ritual to pick up soulfire?  I know it's not for the other sponsered magics....  The books call it rebar, but well without concrete, rebar by itself doesn't do much  .

Nope, the only Sponsored Magic that requires Evocation and Thaumaturgy is Kemmlerite Necromancy. Soulfire has no such requirements, just a note as to why it costs more. The book also says that it acts much like fire in terms of evocation, which I would think means that users would be completely free to use it in an act of pure aggression.

Also interesting to note that Soulfire isn't referred to in terms of a sponsor, rather saying that the Soulfire itself has an agenda that appears to be in line with the forces of Heaven. This adds a little bit of weight to the idea that it comes from within rather than from an outside source.

[sinker]

It is possible that you've got it the other way around, possible that Harry is the exception instead of the rule. Seems to me that you could draw that power from a different source instead of eating your own soul especially if your soul is the lesser version of that greater source. And it's possible that harry's grounding in magic is making him use it as a boost to his normal abilities, when it could be used all on its own as something else entirely.

I have a character right now that is using soulfire on it's own and I'm treating it simply as spellcasting with that holy bent. She does have a focus on protection so her rotes are two different shield spells and then a holy fire attack and a lay on hands spell (I figure it's reasonable to believe that soulfire gives me healing at evocation speeds). I haven't got into it much but thus far I'm treating it simply as my spell trappings with perhaps a slight limitation and a purpose of it's own (that being the major disadvantage of it).

And lastly while sponsored magic: soulfire does cost 5 without evocation and thaumaturgy, all three of them together still cost 9...

[Kaldra]

personaly, for soulfire it seems like every thing gets an extra exchange or two or action. in essecnce the hand was 3 or four force attacks, the fire had the extra umph, it almost seems like evocations gain some beneifits of thaumaturgy and vice versa. in terms of attacks that is verry powerful though so it probably would not be right for the game.

my players have all wanted to use it for creative things and in really really complex spells, in one case one wizard with soulfire cast a portion of a spell and had it last for several rounds while another wizard casted the other half of the spell around it in effect creating a really cool effect ( they cursed a warlock to never again be able to draw on power, in effect the one player created a long lasting cocoon anchored to the warlocks lifeforce with the sould fire around the warlock while the other player made what was more or less the metaphysical equivalent of many magic circles that would cut him off from magic, and also a block to protect the circles ).

[MyNinjaH8sU]

The character in question from my original post is a dead man animated by celestial forces to fight the enemies of heaven on earth.

His abilities are something like:

Soulfire [-5]
Living Dead [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Marked By Power [-1]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch is Unholy Power [+2]

He will probably have a little more, as we are playing at Submerged, but he hasn't decided yet.

The setting, for those interested, is 1850, during the California Gold Rush. I would love to go into more detail, but still doing a little research, and I'll probably make a separate post.

The way he has talked about his character is one of not knowing why he has been brought back, but being given power, and being shown a place to use it. He was never a good man in life, and may see this as a path to redemption.

I agree with several other people who have expressed opinions that this may not be the best way to represent Soulfire as mentioned in the books, but I think we are going to play it as Sponsored Magic, because it is an easy mechanic to use as a group.

That said, does anyone have any ideas for good Debt Compels?

[MyNinjaH8sU]

personaly, for soulfire it seems like every thing gets an extra exchange or two or action. in essecnce the hand was 3 or four force attacks, the fire had the extra umph, it almost seems like evocations gain some beneifits of thaumaturgy and vice versa. in terms of attacks that is verry powerful though so it probably would not be right for the game.

See, I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a grapple action, extended over several rounds, and then later making attack spells with the same trapping, but not letting up the grapple. I don't think extra actions are ever really appropriate in this system. They go against the abstract nature of an exchange.

[Buscadera]

The character in question from my original post is a dead man animated by celestial forces to fight the enemies of heaven on earth.

His abilities are something like:

Soulfire [-5]
Living Dead [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Marked By Power [-1]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch is Unholy Power [+2]

Not to nitpick, but your Catch negates the Refresh cost of Inhuman Toughness. It should be bumped down to +1.

[Kaldra]

so perhaps, evocations get to slap on a maneuver? seems like that could work.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Not to nitpick, but your Catch negates the Refresh cost of Inhuman Toughness. It should be bumped down to +1.

You are totally correct. I didn't even think about it. That's illegal, right? It seems like it should be a +2 by the rules, is my only issue. I want to be able to tell my player why it is the way it is.

so perhaps, evocations get to slap on a maneuver? seems like that could work.

Perhaps, but this still has the problem of multiple actions a round.

[Kaldra]

i have used this line a few times: The name of the book is YOUR STORY do what feels right. also for the whole toughness thing just givem supernatural and a plus 2 rebate same total pricing.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

i have used this line a few times: The name of the book is YOUR STORY do what feels right. also for the whole toughness thing just givem supernatural and a plus 2 rebate same total pricing.

I have no problem house ruling things that make sense. Economy of action is one of those things that I am loathe to change in any game, because in my experience it causes more problems than it ever solves.

As for the toughness, I'm really not too interested in any of my players having anything past Inhuman for the time, but I will have to see. Supernatural Toughness + Soulfire and general magic badassery is a pretty ridiculous combination, in my mind. I think that would put him into the crazy powerful category, and would overshadow the other players.