Ward Strength?

[cgodfrey7]

p276 A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using thaumaturgy instead of evocation.

It must be late, but I was trying to figure out why a wizard would make a 8 shift ward when he could make a 24 or 40 shift ward instead?  Other than being game breaking with the PCs not being able to break through, am I missing some limiting factor?

[Tbora]

p276 A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using thaumaturgy instead of evocation.

It must be late, but I was trying to figure out why a wizard would make a 8 shift ward when he could make a 24 or 40 shift ward instead?  Other than being game breaking with the PCs not being able to break through, am I missing some limiting factor?

It takes more time and effort to perform mechanically.

And a wizard PC could theoretically do a 30-40 shift ward if they felt like it, in the game as demonstrated in the books epic rituals ARE supposed to be possible though difficult. That is the whole point why they spent an entire chapter on wizards and magic; Wizards when given time to prepare are ridiculously powerful and on purpose.

That is why as a GM you have to ambush them and not given them time to do so until the Epic Climax when they can really shine

[Papa Gruff]

Tbora is mostly right.

To me the correct answer is: because wizards can't!

As all thaumaturgy wards are limited by certain things. One is the Lore skill of the wizard witch determines how strong a thaumaturgic spell can be without preparation. This can be boosted by declaration, spending FP to invoke aspects or accepting/inflicting consequences or skipping scenes. However: this will bring the wizard only so far. He'll probably not have a ton of FP to spend in the first place. He'll be hesitant to take or inflict dire consequences on him or others. So the most likely source of complexity boosts comes from declarations.

Thing is that declarations are still something the GM has a lot of control over. The declarations are likely to be pretty difficult (at least an effort of Great +4 should be appropriate following declaration guidelines, possibly even Fantastic +6). It's also likely that the player will not be able to come up with a huge number of reasonable declarations. If the GM is of the opinion that the declarations of the player stopped making sense he may decline them outright, witch the player should then except.

If we put all this together, it is very unlikely that a player will be able to bring together a 30-40 shift ward. At the very least they'll be very difficult and time consuming, because giving enough time (a.k.a. skipping enough in session scenes) the wizard can accomplish hell of a lot.

[Belial666]

This is a guideline on what is doable for a 1-scene spell in terms of complexity. It is more or less what Harry Dresden does to summon the Erlking, minus a True Name aspect. These can be applied to almost all thaumaturgies you way want do - and while Harry probably spent several more scenes researching the thing to acheive enough complexity for the Erlking, thse shifts should be enough for most other things;

5 from the wizard's Lore, and possibly specialization or foci.
4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.
4 from two Lore declarations - finding/making an effective incantation for the spell and using appropriate symbolism.
4 from two Discipline declarations - clearing your mind of all distractions and executing the ritual actions with perfect control.
4 from two Conviction declarations - believing absolutely that this must be done and calling in power to charge a strong magic circle.
2 from one Resources declaration - quality materials
2 from one contacts or one scholarship declaration - research previous wizards' works on the subject.


That's 25-29 shifts.

[Papa Gruff]

This is a guideline on what is doable for a 1-scene spell in terms of complexity. It is more or less what Harry Dresden does to summon the Erlking, minus a True Name aspect. These can be applied to almost all thaumaturgies you way want do - and while Harry probably spent several more scenes researching the thing to acheive enough complexity for the Erlking, thse shifts should be enough for most other things;

5 from the wizard's Lore, and possibly specialization or foci.
4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.
4 from two Lore declarations - finding/making an effective incantation for the spell and using appropriate symbolism.
4 from two Discipline declarations - clearing your mind of all distractions and executing the ritual actions with perfect control.
4 from two Conviction declarations - believing absolutely that this must be done and calling in power to charge a strong magic circle.
2 from one Resources declaration - quality materials
2 from one contacts or one scholarship declaration - research previous wizards' works on the subject.


That's 25-29 shifts.

I don't dispute this and we had this discussion before. It is (VERY) technically possible to do enough prep to come to this kind of complexity. However: the chance that you as a player will be able to pull all these declarations of is slim to the point of impossibility, if the guidelines on declarations that are in the book are followed.

Your 25-29 shifts are purely theoretical in the actual game and more or less hypothetical in terms of canon. If you choose to allow the wizard player in your game to just make declarations all day and night then yes: There is absolutely no limit to how big any kind of thaumaturgy can get. Witch in my opinion is absolutely stupid and not in line with the canon at all. No offence meant.

[knnn]

Makes you wonder how powerful that ward the Merlin raised in Dead Beat to stop the entire Red Court + Demons/Outsiders was.

[Becq]

Not to mention that, by my count, that ritual would take several days to cast.  I mean, the research time on incantations and symbolism alone could be a day or more.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Personal Speculation: The Merlin can cast Thaumaturgy [Wards] with the Speed of Evocation.

Which, frankly, is freaking scary.

[Ryan_Singer]

Personal Speculation: The Merlin can cast Thaumaturgy [Wards] with the Speed of Evocation.

Which, frankly, is freaking scary.

Yes. I would give him something like:

Sponsored Magic: Defensive magic.

This would let him rack up sponsor debt that forces him to be reactive and turtley on blocks and wards, and also cast wards using evocation.

[Becq]

Either that, or the 'ward' that he cast was simply a large, powerful block (which is very similar to a ward).

[MyNinjaH8sU]

He also might have started with a Block, supplemented by the Gatekeeper (I think he was there at the time), and then used the time it bought him to bring up an absolutely kick-ass ward.

Cause, really, who's going to get through like a 14-15 shift block, which he could toss around pretty easily and be standing, just according to his stats in Our World, which are admittedly low.

[eberg]

4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.

A mild consequence only contributes two shifts. Just nit-picking.

[Belial666]

Yeah, but many wizards have 2 milds (1 extra from high conviction)

[Becq]

Yeah, but many wizards have 2 milds (1 extra from high conviction)

If by "many" you mean "only the truly exceptional few who", then I concur.

[Morfedel]

If by "many" you mean "only the truly exceptional few who", then I concur.

He said Wizard, not practitioner. I suspect most wizards are going to hE at least. 4 or 5 in at least one of the three... and that wild mean about a third... and that's the young wizards. The older ones will be even more significant.