Thaumaturgy: Declarations to help Discipline checks too?

[devonapple]

For Thaumaturgy, one can make Declarations to provide taggable Aspects which will help a ritualist build up enough bonuses to their Lore check to prepare the spell construct for a ritual.

After that, they then have to start feeding shifts into the ritual construct to make it work, using Discipline checks to determine success (and taking Fallout/Backlash on failed Discipline checks) for each exchange.

Would the ritualist also be able to make (or have made prior to the ritual) Declarations to provide taggable Aspects which will help with those Discipline checks? It seems like a legitimate option, but I may have missed something in the rules forbidding that.

A ritualist in our game successfully set up an 8-shift ritual, and started dribbling one shift per exchange into the construct, which should have been the easiest way to go. But he rolled poorly on several of those supposedly easy Discipline checks, bringing down stress and consequences on their heads (and with rituals, you bring down stress equal to ALL of the currently amassed shifts!). Had they been able to set up some Aspects to help with those Discipline checks things may have been a lot less hairy.

[Becq]

My understanding is that you can use declarations to make aspects.  You can then tag those aspects when appropriate, and generally they grant a +2 bonus to the (related) skill roll being made.  In the case of Thaumaturgy, you can also tag those aspects to aid in meeting the complexity deficit -- but this additional feature doesn't change the primary benefit of tagging aspects to get bonuses to rolls.  Note, of course, that you only get one free tag on an aspect (after that you must spend Fate), and I believe that you can only tag an aspect once per 'event', so any aspects you use for the complexity can't also be used for the control roll(s).

[devonapple]

Note, of course, that you only get one free tag on an aspect (after that you must spend Fate), and I believe that you can only tag an aspect once per 'event', so any aspects you use for the complexity can't also be used for the control roll(s).

Of course - only one free tag per Aspect.

So, what I think I'm concluding is that a ritualist could (with enough time) make additional Declarations which are meant to be tagged for the Control rolls portion of the ritual. For example: 8 Declarations were needed to meet the Lore requirement, but the ritualist opted to spend time/resources/skill checks to make another 5 Declarations on top of that: one for each of the 5 rounds they planned to be making Control checks.

Or (if time was a serious factor) the ritualist could spend Fate Points for a second tag on those Aspects already declared (and tagged) for the Lore check (which would be expensive and possibly foolish).

[MyNinjaH8sU]

All makes sense to me. Just remember that Declarations are the purview of the GM, so if a player starts abusing them, they will just start being denied.

The guidelines for them would make the rolls for all those increasingly hard, probably up to and including Fantastic difficulty on many if not all of them. No wizard will just pass all those rolls, so the practicality is a little different than the example might make it seem.

[devonapple]

I do need to re-read the rules on how long skill checks can take.

I wonder if Wizard players intentionally use in-game down-time to make a laundry list of spellcasting-related Declarations which they can then tag at their leisure later for Thaumaturgy or Evocation - like stockpiling a satchel full of magical paraphernalia, Mana batteries, etc.

Then again, the bad guys could successfully Assess that the Wizard is carrying around all those toys, and start using Maneuvers to remove them from play.

[bibliophile20]

Dresden does it all the time, noting that the props help him control the power of the spell.  Everything from making sure that his circle is perfectly round, to exotic materials (candles made by fey) and not so exotic materials (blue Playdough, anyone?)

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Agreed. However, for the sake of game mechanics, as well as balance, I would not let a player tag them all each time he performed a ritual. That's the job of focus items, it seems.

[Becq]

I wonder if Wizard players intentionally use in-game down-time to make a laundry list of spellcasting-related Declarations which they can then tag at their leisure later for Thaumaturgy or Evocation - like stockpiling a satchel full of magical paraphernalia, Mana batteries, etc.

The stuff that the wizard routinely carries is supposed to be represented by his Lore ability.

[devonapple]

The stuff that the wizard routinely carries is supposed to be represented by his Lore ability.

Well, yes, but imagine that a player took some game time to Declare Aspects and then didn't tag them until a spellcasting challenge some time later, would those Aspects have faded?

For instance, an in-game sojourn into Chinatown affords a player wizard an opportunity to acquire some special herbs (and a successful Resources roll complemented by Rapport allows him to Declare upon himself the Aspect "I Acquired Rare Magical Herbs in Chinatown"). Some time later, presumably after several conflicts have been played out, the wizard finds a narrative reason to bring in that Aspect during a Potion-making session.

[Becq]

Well, yes, but imagine that a player took some game time to Declare Aspects and then didn't tag them until a spellcasting challenge some time later, would those Aspects have faded?

For instance, an in-game sojourn into Chinatown affords a player wizard an opportunity to acquire some special herbs (and a successful Resources roll complemented by Rapport allows him to Declare upon himself the Aspect "I Acquired Rare Magical Herbs in Chinatown"). Some time later, presumably after several conflicts have been played out, the wizard finds a narrative reason to bring in that Aspect during a Potion-making session.

Yes, they would have 'faded'.   Aspects that are created by Declarations can only be free-tagged if done so fairly quickly, at most within the same scene.  The aspect may still exist after that (depending on the nature of the aspect) but you only get rewarded by getting a free tag once, and within a short time after the Declaration.

In the example you gave, I think you could actually do something like what you're doing, since potion making is hand-waved in a flashback sort of way.  In this case, I think that you could do one of two things: you could either do the Declaration and apply the bonus in advance (without necessarily specifying the nature of the potion, but noting that the potion in question was at +2 strength), or you could do it by way of flashback -- ie, you anounce that you are using a potion of ______, and then mention that, by the way, you "Acquired Rare Magical Herbs in Chinatown", making the resources roll to see if the herbs were, in fact, sufficiently rare right then.

At least, I think that it would work along those lines.

[devonapple]

In Rick Neal's discussion on Magic in DFRPG (http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=629), he discusses preparing for combats, and suggests:

If you’ve got some time before going into battle, gird your loins. Take a little time to employ some maneuvers to stick Aspects on yourself that you can use in the combat to come.

Would a player then want to create Sticky versions of Aspects, to make them stick around long enough to be tagged? Or is Neal suggesting that this preparation happen immediately preceding a combat, during a "power-up montage"?

[Becq]

Well, I suppose its up to your group/GM to make the call on what's possible.  If you did some stuff in preparation for a known confrontation, you could define that as one scene.  That said, here is what I found on the subject in the rules:

Maneuvers result from an action and create temporary aspects that you can free-tag 'almost immediately' (at most within a scene)
Declarations don't require an action (take no time) and create a potentially persistant aspects that you can free-tag 'almost immediately' (at most within a scene)
Assessments generally take larger amounts of time, but create a potentially persistant aspect that you can free-tag possibly much later (even several scenes later)

With respect to Rick's "power-up montage", I'm not sure.  It may be that the rules were tightened up a bit since he previewed them.  Or it may just be a matter of terminology shifting.  For example, it might be possible to call most of those steps he suggested a form of Assessment, rather than a Maneuver.  They meet the 'preparation time' requirement for Assessments, but differ in that they are an attempt to create an aspect, rather than discover an existing aspect.  The scouting and research examples (the last two) sound very much like Assessment.

I like the examples given; they sound flavorful.  At the same time, I am (as always) concerned about the potential for abuse, as the players say they spend an hour after breakfast every morning prepping 60 assorted free aspects for later use, thus ensuring that he can spend three or four every roll for the rest of the day.

Perhaps the answer lies in creative interpretation of the durations.  Have each maneuver-based aspect last until the maneuver is 'spoiled' some how.  A good example of this is in the rules describing aspects involving aiming -- the aspect only lasts until something causes your aim to falter (like the target moving into cover).  Aspects involving magical focus (purification rituals, building up charges in charms, etc) might only last until you are involved in a scene in which magic is being flung around.  They last for that scene, but then disipate if not used, because their energy was disrupted by the magic flying around.  Aspects involving concentration or centering might only last until something stressful occurs to unsettle you.  And so on.

And in any case, if players start writing down more than a few such aspects, I'd probably think hard about a mechanic to limit them in some way.  Perhaps no more than one aspect per relavant skill, or no more than X, where X is the highest of the skills being used to justify aspects.


For example, 'Magic

[devonapple]

Maneuvers result from an action and create temporary aspects that you can free-tag 'almost immediately' (at most within a scene)
Declarations don't require an action (take no time) and create a potentially persistant aspects that you can free-tag 'almost immediately' (at most within a scene)
Assessments generally take larger amounts of time, but create a potentially persistant aspect that you can free-tag possibly much later (even several scenes later)

Could someone ::looks around nervously:: 'declare' that they had done something plausible earlier which would be applicable to a given situation?
"I Declare that I happen to have a Perfect Quartz Crystal which I acquired at the New Age store earlier this week"
(roll Resources against GM-set difficulty of Great)
(the roll is successful)
"Yes, here it is in my pocket, as it has been the whole time! Tag for a +2 to this Control check!"

It seems like Harry does that from time to time, referring to things he had done before but not narrated. Though that may also be more for narrative suspense.

With respect to Rick's "power-up montage", I'm not sure.  It may be that the rules were tightened up a bit since he previewed them.  Or it may just be a matter of terminology shifting.  For example, it might be possible to call most of those steps he suggested a form of Assessment, rather than a Maneuver.  They meet the 'preparation time' requirement for Assessments, but differ in that they are an attempt to create an aspect, rather than discover an existing aspect.  The scouting and research examples (the last two) sound very much like Assessment.

It's possible that things were tightened up later, but his posts are dated from June 13 on, which would put them after the official release of the book. He may have been writing from his own pre-release notes, or may have been informed by same in his interpretation of the rules as written. It may make more sense that these are simply pre-scene powerups and not intended to be done several scenes ahead of time.

But there should be a limit on how many of these you could declare. I'm not trying to set my players up to be rules munchkins, but I do want to communicate to them the resources available to them.

[Richard_Chilton]

I think the declarations have to tagged fairly quickly.

The example I always think of is in Proven Guilty.  Dresden gets ready to cast a spell by mediating, ritual bath, etc and just as he is about to cast the spell the phone rings and he loses all of that prep time when has to go bail out Molly (or maybe when he decides to answer the phone; it's been a while since I read it).  Later in the same book he goes to cast the same spell and has to take consequences because he doesn't have time to do the prep work.

With most of the things listed, well, if you aren't using them for a spell right then, then I can't see them being stored.  Even those things listed under resources - if you don't know what you're casting then how do you know what items to pick up?

Some of them imply doing prep work over several scenes (or days) and I'm okay with that, but if you tagging those things for prep work then it's for a certain spell - you can't use them for other spells.

Richard

[devonapple]

The example I always think of is in Proven Guilty.  Dresden gets ready to cast a spell by mediating, ritual bath, etc and just as he is about to cast the spell the phone rings and he loses all of that prep time when has to go bail out Molly (or maybe when he decides to answer the phone; it's been a while since I read it).  Later in the same book he goes to cast the same spell and has to take consequences because he doesn't have time to do the prep work.

Wonderful example. That certainly adds to the argument for not allowing casters to rack up those declarations. I imagine the RPG infrastructure would be that Harry's GM successfully compelled one of Harry's aspects to make him drop all that prep.

Last game session, I gave my players a choice: do the prep work for the ritual, make the rolls, chance the consequences, in exchange for a good chance to finish it in time to avoid a plot twist (in this case, arrest on suspicion of terrorism due to the location of their ritual); or assume they took their time, hand-wave it as successful, but then give them this plot twist in exchange for avoiding the risk of a botched ritual.