Author Topic: Why is the white court catch worth +0?  (Read 18831 times)

Offline toturi

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 734
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2010, 04:34:25 AM »
I thought True Magic could be any practitioner of any skill or power level with both Evocation and Thaumaturgy? If you only know Fire magic, you can't make the claim of knowing True Magic.

Members of Paranet probably know mortal magic but not many of them would know True Magic.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline babel2uk

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 214
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2010, 08:36:25 AM »
The rule book seems to view channelling and ritual as true magic. So anyone who has either one also counts. There's an argument that anyone with sponsored magic also counts too.

Offline toturi

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 734
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2010, 09:38:58 AM »
The rule book seems to view channelling and ritual as true magic. So anyone who has either one also counts. There's an argument that anyone with sponsored magic also counts too.
Any references?
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline babel2uk

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 214
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2010, 10:08:30 AM »
The boxed text under focussed practitioner defines those using ritual or channelling as using aspects of true magic. The sponsored magic is speculation based on that providing a thematicly focused version of ritual and channelling, and the fact that supernatural creatures can have thaumaturgy and evocation (or channelling and ritual). Just my take on it though. YMMV

Offline Ochosi

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2010, 12:18:36 AM »
The phrase “true love” belongs in the notebooks of junior high girls and no place else. It creates a nasty and petty non-distinction between types of otherwise profound love and, as we see here, sends people chasing their tails.

I have seen and experienced love that wasn’t very mushy or fuzzy but was far more profound than what’s called “true love” in romantic comedies. Drop the word “true,” just as one would drop the word “cold” in “cold iron” -- it’s an affection without meaning for our purposes.

So we’re left with some kind of profound love -- that is, love, as opposed to affection. (English overuses the term love and includes “affection” and “enjoyment” within the same.) Fine; that’s not too hard to find.

An immoral method of discovering a person experiencing love:

a) Find a married person: seize and hold that person with violence.
b) Promise to kill that person or his or her spouse, allowing the target to choose which.
c) If the target selects herself, congratulations: you’ve found love.

Divinations should be able to discover this without such gauche methods, as could visiting dreams or maybe mindreading (with the subject’s permission and cooperation if one isn’t using sponsored magic such that we don’t have any Law violations).

Dying for someone else is good enough. Seriously. If this isn’t the case, one must conclude that that one crazy dude who was going on about how “No one shows greater love than when he lays down his life for his friends” had no idea what he was talking about. Indeed, if a person holds the position that a willingness to die for someone else isn’t enough to qualify as love, such a person easily slips into the absurd and inane territory of ridiculous expectations. (I won’t link to tv tropes, but it’s an “arson and murder and jaywalking” type deal.) “Sure, she’ll die for you -- but will she have dinner ready when you get home?” If you feel like a douche for questioning the love of someone willing to sacrifice their life, a) you’ve found love and b) you’re a douche.

The real hard part is discovering what the vampire is vulnerable to. This can be done by finding out what the vampire feeds on. This takes a great deal of effort if the vampire is hiding it -- we’re already in no more than +1 Fate Refresh territory here.

One could also try generating the emotion, instead of producing a lovebird. That. . . seems actually kinda easy. Magic can generate emotions, so that gives lots of supernaturals access to whatever can hurt the target. Indeed, a bit of self-control can also generate appropriate emotions. Admittedly, a person who is utterly hopeless couldn’t generate hope, but outside of extreme personalities, anyone could generate most of the relevant emotions and magic could create the rest. After all, if magic can make you love someone enough to die for them, that consequence alone meets the “love test.” Thus, similar magic or effects could meet the hope and courage tests as well. I’d declare, in my games, that these passing emotions couldn’t “infect” an object such that the object is proof against the appropriate vampire -- the transference from person to object is cancelled if the basis for the emotion fails to persist -- but otherwise I’d find this fair.


Fighting a fear-feeding Malvora?
You’re one short evocation away from having enough bravery to charge in.

If you lack the evocation power, simple: Harden The F*** Up.


Oh,  almost forgot -- what’s the refresh cost, then? Well it can’t be better than +1: knowing which emotion is relevant is simply too tricky. It’s sort of an all-or-nothing thing: if you’re dealing with a wizard, you’re toast, between divination and lore. If you’re dealing with a mortal or a non-wizard paranormal, you’re secret is safe. WCV are puzzle monsters: figure out the puzzle and the challenge is completely transformed.

Seriously, the issue here is that a persistent, patient wizard pwns you. But that’s always the case. As such, this is a +1 catch if a WCV’s enemies will feverishly research him for a week, or a +0 catch if the WCV’s enemies are actually sane. I mean, two dudes, hired out of a Soldier of Fortune magazine, armed with an AK and a flamethrower are easier to finagle than Hope and Love and they end the Terrible Vampire Menace with aplomb.

[/unlurk]

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2010, 02:33:10 AM »
   By cutting "affection", "friends with benefits" and similar "murky" uses of the word love, you've already covered all that the true in true love meant. It means in love. Not "fooling yourself into believing its love because the relationship is convenient", not any other definitions of the word.
  And when you cut those false uses out, Love is still pretty rare. People really don't fall in love that often. They like eachother sure, sometimes they convince themselves that their affection is love, when really all it was was wanting to get laid (and anyone who thinks they don't lie to themselves sometimes, is horribly stupid). but LOVE is rare.

   And even if you cut the "True" out of true love (which is a moot point since your definition of love already cut out the same things that the true love clause was controlling out for), magically created emotions wont count. They aren't real. And the books have conclusively shown that the subject of mind magic would know that they aren't real (even if they aren't consciously aware of it) and fight against the enforcement.
(click to show/hide)

Offline Custos

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2010, 07:00:48 AM »
(click to show/hide)
[/quote]

So it's a magic condenser? I like it!

Offline Becq

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1253
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2010, 10:47:58 PM »
Perhaps 1 Corinthians 13 might be of help here:

"Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
never selfish, not quick to take offense.
There is nothing love cannot face;
there is no limit to its faith,
its hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things
that last forever: faith, hope, and love;
but the greatest of them all is love."

How often do you see relationships that can claim to meet this standard?

Offline deathwombat

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2010, 12:08:27 AM »
Awesome Becq!
Bad typists untie!!!!

Offline Ochosi

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2010, 01:15:31 AM »
I've seen that kind of love many times. It's not rare, simply so incredibly precious that it is always inadequate. And the vast majority of the time I've personally seen it it hasn't been romantically involved. Find a mother who will die for her child without hesitation and you have succeeded.

Think about the implications of love being rare: if it were nearly nonexistent, no one in this forum could say they had a single family member that loved them. I won't say it's common, but it is, technically, ubiquitous.

The posts above reaffirm the idea that the "true" bit in "true love" is foolishly misleading. Love is love; our society is banal and sullies the word for all kinds of inane reasons. But I digress.

Magic can substitute if it compels. Love potions that don't compel, as described in the DFRPG, won't work because they don't compel. Make a magical effect that compels and you have a winner (and, using vanilla Full Magic, a broken Law). Sponsored Magic, or a loving parent, will fit the bill.

Again, though: napalm + 5.45mm = cheaper solution. And +0 is fine.

The bigger issue is that wizards whup up on everything else, which, while amusing, is probably bad. I give mortals a massive set of bonus stunts and give monsters a slight point break -- and may tweak a few of the weaker supernatural abilities while doing so. If you use a similar strategy, the WCV doesn't look so bad and the lack of a Catch rebate won't bother you.

Offline Blackblade

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 924
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2010, 01:40:00 AM »
Word of Jim:

Quote
“With regard to True Love, you commented that it needs to be self-sacrificial love… some folks have pointed out that you (generally) can’t get more self-sacrificial than a parent’s love for a child… are parents protected because of that love?”
Not necessarily, because it’s got to be reciprocated equally or it doesn’t work. While a parent’s love for a child can be something pure and selfless, the child doesn’t return the same kind of love. Children can’t. The nature of the relationship isn’t one of equals exchanging trust and affection, but of the greater protecting the lesser.

Offline Ochosi

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2010, 05:19:55 AM »
I am my mother's child, but I am not a child. Keep that quirk of English in mind. I'm also my mother's baby, as you, reader, likely are your own mother's baby, but nevertheless haven't worn a diaper for many decades (and hope to put off doing it again for many, many more).

Sacrificing for your mother is such a compelling concept that it is used to ironically humanize thugs, who respect the offspring-parent bond, in every culture I can think of.

Again, the shortage of love isn't that of individual relationships, but the general love of humanity. Back to that one guy:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?  -- Mt 5:43

That still leaves plenty of people for WCV to feed on, though they have to be careful. If the love that burned them was romantic love, they'd have an easier time of it: loving one's children and getting loved back is far easier -- usually it's just a matter of time, as a parent, until you get reciprocation. Finding someone who loves you romantically, profoundly, is more of a crapshoot, and it's waaaaay harder for an outsider to test (hence the immoral test I mentioned above).

But even if non-romantic love counts, WCV could just lean towards the childless and stick to very dysfunctional families and they'll do fine. Really, Black Courts have it rougher all the way around -- ignoring the super powers for a moment.

Offline Nyarlathotep5150

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2010, 06:22:51 AM »
Magic can substitute if it compels. Love potions that don't compel, as described in the DFRPG, won't work because they don't compel. Make a magical effect that compels and you have a winner.

   No. You Don't. Because, as I already pointed out (and the novels support), its not a real emotion. Mind magic isn't really making them feel the emotion. Its just making them ACT as though they felt the emotion, and BELIEVE that they feel the emotion... But they don't. Its just a charade. Its not real. And on a subconscious level the target is AWARE that its not real and will struggle against it.
(click to show/hide)
   You can't fake a real emotion. Theres no way to force someone to really feel something they don't. And therefore there is no way to create it.

Offline Richard_Chilton

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2400
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2010, 06:35:25 AM »
Anyone but me ever watch Slings and Arrows? There's scene - I think it's at the end of the second session - where a pair of jaded former lovers have to attend the opening of Romeo and Juliet (one's the festival's creative director and the other one of the main actress).  As they take their seats they talk about the flaw in the play - that a love like that is too intense to be maintained.  The entire play takes place within a week or three (I forget how long it is between the meeting and the double suicide) and neither feels that a love like that can be maintained for long...

I see that being the case for True Love - that during most long term relationships you fall in and out of it.  That there are periods where you'd die for each other and other (longer) periods where you being together is just a part of your life.  Of course there are exceptions, but they are rare.

Oh, and about that scene - one of the sponsors gets on stage to give a speech and rather than the typical dry stuff like "We at OxiChem are proud to support the arts..." the man tells about his life long love of his wife and how normally they attend every performance of their favour play (Romeo and Juliet) and have done so for over 40 years but this time his wife's in the hospital.  The doctors say that she'll be home soon... Basically, a naked display of True Love that inspires the pair of jaded former lovers to take one more shoot at it.

Richard

Offline Ochosi

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Why is the white court catch worth +0?
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »
  Because, as I already pointed out (and the novels support), its not a real emotion. Mind magic isn't really making them feel the emotion. Its just making them ACT as though they felt the emotion.

a) Any RPG played will immediately go beyond the scope of its novel source material.

b) What the quoted author claimed is not the only way imaginable magic can be used. The novels themselves show this since a love potion Dresden uses (as an example in the mechanics book for the rpg, so it's not a spoiler) most specifically does not compel -- therefore we already have two forms of emotion manipulation within the novels, one of which directly contradicts your declaration that there is only one way for magic to work. Within the outlines of the rpg, there's nothing keeping yet a third (and a forth, and a fifth) way for magic to create an effect that grants real emotion and relationships outside of those methods. Something we've seen used was a bit of thaumaturgy to give two (willing) individuals mental communication, freedom from insecurities, and an experience of rapid subjective time -- growing a (platonic) relationship at incredible speed, with some side effects.