Why is the white court catch worth +0?

[TheMouse]

I'm guessing it's +0 for a number of reasons:

First, superlative examples of positive emotion are rare things. Relatively few people experience true love, or true hope.

Second, there's absolutely no way to test whether you have it beyond trying to use it. You can see that fire burns. You can check to be sure that silver is inherited. You can have a priest bless something and know it's holy. How do you check to see if love is pure?

Third, it's not easy to research. It's easier than some things, sure, but it's somewhat difficult to find a source.

Fourth, it's not just one Catch; it's one per family. So not only do you need to figure out that you're facing a WCV, you need to figure out their emotion of choice. Which basically means that you have to do research twice: Once to reveal that you need to find an emotion, then a second time to correlate between the emotion and the corresponding Catch.

So if it was one family and you could test for the emotion to be sure that you have it, it seems like it a +2 Catch to me; it's a rare emotion that's a bit troublesome to figure out. But you have complications in that you can't be sure what you have, and you can't be sure which one you'll need. These complications make it harder to bring about by a fair margin, which in theory offsets the +2.

[MyNinjaH8sU]

Not to mention that, while rare, a WCV could learn to feed from more than one emotion. If you have true love, and they switch to feeding off of fear, requiring True Courage as a catch, how likely are you to have it?

[Becq]

Not to mention that, while rare, a WCV could learn to feed from more than one emotion. If you have true love, and they switch to feeding off of fear, requiring True Courage as a catch, how likely are you to have it?

You can't switch The Catch.  Either the vampire in question would retain their 'hereditary' Catch (but be able to dual-feed), or the vampire would gain a second Catch (worth the larger of the two refreshes, which is still zero) and be affected equally by both all of the time.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you pay attention to the values of catches in Our World, you'll notice that many of them are worth a point less than the rules for The Catch say they should be worth. It's probably just a design mistake.

If you want to be charitable to the designers, it might be because True Love is essentially a plot device. The GM has total control over its availability. If you look at it that way, it makes sense.

[luminos]

The calculations for the catch are done with at least as much an eye on in-game balance as they are for reasons of the fictional difficulty of satisfying the catch.

Think of the break down as going something like this:

+0 for being specific (this category is very straightforward)

+0 for availability.  This is not necessarily a representation of how much total true love is actually out there.  Think of it more as a question of how likely is it that anyone worth being considered opposition for the White Court is going to have access to this catch.  Random couples in love don't matter for the catch if they will never be expected to interact with the WC.  I'd limit the people who do count for True Love to be those who have an aspect to represent it.  This seems to be narrow enough to justify making it +0.

+0 for research.  Honestly, this one is perfectly fine for changing, as the research category requires heavily subjective interpretation.  Just use this number as a guideline for how much justification a character needs before he knows about the weakness.  +2 would be minimal, perhaps merely knowing about the supernatural would be justification enough.  +0 means some level of personal interaction is necessary at the least.

[Amelia Crane]

So everybody seems to think that the +0 pricing of the catch is correct.  Which means that the guidelines for pricing catches are wrong.  What would you think good guidelines are?  As they stand RARE is +1.  Unique is +0.  And people keep saying that love is rare, and that should be worth +0.

And all that is ignoring a potential argument that anyone could get true love.  It may take years, you may never find the right person.  But the potential for true love is within all (or at least most) of us.  Just like the potential to pick up a piece of iron.  To take that stand it should be worth +2.  But I have to agree that would be an inappropriate manipulation of the wording of the catch pricing guidelines.

[Blackblade]

My interpretation of the +0 catch is that True Love (or Hope, Courage, Peace, Charity, ect.) is designed to only show up in a campaign under the rarest of conditions.  Someone playing a WC vamp should not have to worry about running into enemies that satisfy the catch more than once or twice over the course of the campaign.  If the GM does decide to utilize lots of people with True Whatever, then they should really give the player at least a +1 for the increased frequency, since the potency of the ability would be decreased. 

Another thought on True Love:  I don't think that just simple love will cut it.  In all of the examples we've seen, there was some sort of sacrifice/highly irrational decision made in the name of that love: Harry declared war for Susan, Justine almost got herself killed for Thomas, WhatsHisName took a bullet for Inara.  I would imagine that something like this would have to be a prerequisite to gain this sort of protection.

[Becq]

For my part, I think the definitions in The Catch are bad.  It should be common/uncommon/rare rather than common/rare/all-but-nonexistent.  Even the example given is bad: after all, having as a Catch an item that voids all Catches anyway is hardly a Catch, is it?  I think the description should be more like this (and this description is consistent with the costs given for sample characters):

* If the Catch is bypassed by something that anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them (like cold iron), you get a +2. If it is bypassed by something that anyone could get access to but that is uncommon or difficult to find or obtain or difficult to use as a weapon (like holy items), you get a +1. If it is bypassed by something that is very rare and/or difficult/expensive to obtain or restricted to a special class of people or not generally useable as a weapon (like True Magic or a four-leaf clover), you get nothing.
* If almost anyone with an awareness of the supernatural can identify you and knows about your Catch or could easily find out (like from the Paranet, or Bram Stoker’s Dracula if you’re a Black Court vampire), you get a +2. If identifying your breed or knowledge of the Catch requires access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard’s library), you get a +1. If knowledge of the Catch requires knowing you personally to learn about it (like the effect of Judas’ Noose on Nicodemus), you get nothing.

Note that I've also added factors involving ease of weaponizing a Catch, and identifying you as a member of a group that has a Catch.  I think this plays a roll in things like sunlight (easy to come by and free, but harder to use as a weapon and useless at night), the iron alergy of Fae (something that is wide knowledge, but most Fae aren't necessarily obviously Fae unless you know what to look for), etc.

Other useful clarifications would include such things as what to do with the presence of non-weapon Catches.  The rules mention that the presence of such things might be a good excuse for a compel, but this seems rather weak with respect to such things as sunlight and vampires.  Presence of a Catch should also disable Recovery powers while 'close enough', and direct contact should make use of environmental damage rules.

[Richard_Chilton]

If a PC encounters a Black Court Vampire, he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a Fairy, he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a Loup de Garou (not sure of the spelling there), he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a White Court Vampire, he can learn its catch and ... what? Gain an emotional state? Falling in True Love (or gaining any of the other emotional states) isn't the same as going to a store and buying an iron pipe, or picking up some garlic, or melting down the family silver.

A PC can ID the beastie and research its weakness, but when it comes to the White Court the PC can't exploit the weakness.  Not in a meaningful way.

It's like the low cost of a wizard's constitution.  Living for centuries is a powerful advantage, but it didn't have much of an impact in the game.  That's why it's worth 0 points.  I see the White Court weakness the same way - a weakness that the PCs can't exploit is the same as not having a weakness.

Richard

[Nyarlathotep5150]

If a PC encounters a Black Court Vampire, he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a Fairy, he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a Loup de Garou (not sure of the spelling there), he can learn its catch and use it against it.

If a PC encounters a White Court Vampire, he can learn its catch and ... what? Gain an emotional state? Falling in True Love (or gaining any of the other emotional states) isn't the same as going to a store and buying an iron pipe, or picking up some garlic, or melting down the family silver.

A PC can ID the beastie and research its weakness, but when it comes to the White Court the PC can't exploit the weakness.  Not in a meaningful way.

It's like the low cost of a wizard's constitution.  Living for centuries is a powerful advantage, but it didn't have much of an impact in the game.  That's why it's worth 0 points.  I see the White Court weakness the same way - a weakness that the PCs can't exploit is the same as not having a weakness.

Richard

   Many of the same points I would have made, except 2 points.
   1) I'm not sure how easy it would be to find the White Court weakness. They seem to play that really close to the chest. Harry only knows because of an extremely close relationship with one. Its not unreasonable to assume that most people outside the Court are in the dark about it.
   
    And a minor correction, 2) You can't just go out and get the Loup Garou weakness. It has to be inherited silver, not just any silver will do.

   P.S. I don't remember the exact details of the times they used true love infused Items, but weren't all those times when either the user or the Vampire was directly connected to the love in the item? If so, it would be silly to say that it was the item. No third party could grab up that item and use it effectively.

[toturi]

If you pay attention to the values of catches in Our World, you'll notice that many of them are worth a point less than the rules for The Catch say they should be worth. It's probably just a design mistake.

If you want to be charitable to the designers, it might be because True Love is essentially a plot device. The GM has total control over its availability. If you look at it that way, it makes sense.

I would say that the rules in Your Story are primarily for PCs, whereas in Our World, the NPCs of equivalent power get less potent versions of the PC rules. So NPCs outside of Plot Devices are mooks there to suck it up.

[Richard_Chilton]

   Many of the same points I would have made, except 2 points.
   1) I'm not sure how easy it would be to find the White Court weakness. They seem to play that really close to the chest. Harry only knows because of an extremely close relationship with one. Its not unreasonable to assume that most people outside the Court are in the dark about it.

Here's a guide I used when running games: If it's possible then the players will think of a way of doing it.

It's possible that someone could find out the White Court secrets, so some will eventually do it.  It might take a while.  It might take several sessions and visits to obscure Lore Masters, but the PCs will eventually find out.

   
    And a minor correction, 2) You can't just go out and get the Loup Garou weakness. It has to be inherited silver, not just any silver will do.

No they can't run out and get it, but they can find a way of exploiting it.  Even if it means recruiting a frat boy from the college rifle team to squeeze off that one shot (with a bullet made from his late grandfather's fraternity ring) they are able to find a way of exploiting the weakness.  Not so with True Love.

You can see if silver has been inherited but there is no Love Meter they can use to measure the difference between a couple who are into each other, a couple staying together for the sake of the children, and True Love.

It just isn't exploitable as weakness - except for the players who put "In True Love with..." as one of their aspects.  And that's a mix of cheese and story handles that resolve into the Lois Lane situation...

Although if I was running a game and PC wanted to be in True Love I would probably use it a scheduling issue as opposed to making the True Love a target.  Make the PC choose between going out to investigate things or having dinner with his loved one - that sort of thing.

   P.S. I don't remember the exact details of the times they used true love infused Items, but weren't all those times when either the user or the Vampire was directly connected to the love in the item? If so, it would be silly to say that it was the item. No third party could grab up that item and use it effectively.

I think there was a scene in one of the books where Thomas mentions that one of his relatives picked up an old wedding ring at used good store and was branded by it.  Of course, how do tell what might have True Love attached to it? It's next to impossible.

Richard

[Jaroslav]

I think there was a scene in one of the books where Thomas mentions that one of his relatives picked up an old wedding ring at used good store and was branded by it.  Of course, how do tell what might have True Love attached to it? It's next to impossible.

This is were magic and the sight come into play. I really doubt they couldn't detect true love. Even normal people should be able to detect true love. Most people have met a couple that is truly in love. A pair that just seems to fit together like two half of a whole. Finding a couple like that shouldn't to hard. Then it just becomes a matter of weaponizing their tokens of affection. That part is a bit harder, but it's entirely doable.

Finding inherited silver is much harder proposition. Huge portions of the world are extremely impoverished and silver would be inherited almost impossible to find. In a country like Niger or Somalia it's a lot easier to find true love than inherited silver. So if inherited silver is a +1 catch for availability, true love should be too.

[Richard_Chilton]

Harry never noticed the True Love been Thomas and...

Wait, forget about detecting it - how do you use it as a weapon? It's a defense against feeding, not a way to kill a vampire (like iron, garlic, inhered silver are for their beasties).  If you would send your True Love to hug a White Court in the hopes that she kills it then the True Love is gone.

As for how common inhered silver is - it can be more common than one might think.  An old lucky quarter (from back when they were made of silver) passed down would do it.  Sure, there are places in the world where it would be next to impossible to find it, but the game designers didn't envision games set there.

If they had then Resources skill would have all sorts of notes attached to it.  What does resources mean in a place where average income is under 1K a year? How does a PC mentally handle having money while others are starving around him.  Translating Great Resources as the setting moves from the US to China to Niger.  Those notes weren't there because the game designers didn't see that as being the focus of the game.

Again, the White Court flaw is like Wizard's Constitution.  True Love is great in ways that don't impact on the game.

Now I can envision people getting the silver they need in the hands of someone who can use it - say the people in Niger invite a wealthy hunter in for the ultimate hunt.  Or (being cynical and knowing how some gamers exploit every loophole) give silver to a relative and killing him - bang, you just inherited silver.  It's not going to be easy, but using inherited silver as a weapon is doable.

Turning to White Court, I am having difficulties seeing how it can be used as offensive weapon.  A "bang, the vampire goes down" scene just isn't coming to me.  Even if you got people in True Love grappling and hugging the vampire then the vampire can still smack one hard enough to get away (it would hurt the vampire, but that's better than dying and with inhuman speed they are gone).  Once the lovers are know to the White Court, well, True Love doesn't do anything against a sniper.  Or even a White Court vampire smashing a club over your head - as the blood spray doesn't get them.  Less violently, there's always a century old vampire deciding to break a couple up - I'm sure they have their ways.

No, I really can't think of a way to use True Love to kill someone - so as a catch it's as meaningless as living for centuries is.

Zero points.

Richard

[Jaroslav]

Turning to White Court, I am having difficulties seeing how it can be used as offensive weapon.  A "bang, the vampire goes down" scene just isn't coming to me.  Even if you got people in True Love grappling and hugging the vampire then the vampire can still smack one hard enough to get away (it would hurt the vampire, but that's better than dying and with inhuman speed they are gone).  Once the lovers are know to the White Court, well, True Love doesn't do anything against a sniper.  Or even a White Court vampire smashing a club over your head - as the blood spray doesn't get them.  Less violently, there's always a century old vampire deciding to break a couple up - I'm sure they have their ways.

If true love only counted as a catch when it was a person's love and not an item that carried that love I'd agree with you. But a character taking an autographed bat that a wife had given to her husband as an anniversary gift they could mess up a white court vampire pretty well. And it would be to hard for a character to get such an item. Its just a few contact and burglary rolls away.