True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?

[sinker]

However the question really is whether someone's faith in anything (ideals, people, etc) can give someone power. So again Sanya isn't a good example. His power comes from the white god, regardless of where his faith lies.

[Amseriah]

Well that then makes the big question:  are the faith powers internal or external?  All of the Knights of the Cross have the faith powers, as does Father Forthill.  Are their power granted to them by the White God or is it something that is internal, the power of their own conviction and belief?

[jadecourtflunky]

Exactly. If you think about it, the knights of the cross are champions of god, which are true believers on steroids. Sanya may have a sword given to him by the archangel michael, but his beliefs are based in trotsky. He may be agnostic, but his belief, and therefore his power, is that he must help the community.

[Sh33p]

There's an NPC in a setting I'm working on who outright weaponized Hollywood Atheism. He was a Soviet soldier in Afghanistan who, upon being confronted by a djinn that took out his unit, went so far off the deep end of belief and unbelief that it turned a bayonet knife into a bona fide weapon of faith. He killed the djinn in short order. The only thing he has left is faith in himself, and something broke down inside of him such that said self-faith has turned into a higher concept comparable to a personal deity. He's somewhere between nihilism, atheism, and narcissism (or whatever it is when you believe in yourself over everything else in the universe), and his mere presence can be like kryptonite to some supernaturals.

Don't root for the guy though. He's a sex-trafficking Russian mobster in league with two houses in the White Court, among other things.

That said: The RPG book only seems to describe True Faith as coming from belief in something bigger than you are (although maybe not in those exact words). If someone had faith in the idea of atheism, to me that'd be fine.

[Lawgiver]

Saying faith in “anything” can “make magic” is oversimplification. If someone has faith that chicken soup is good for the body and soul, that doesn’t mean it can do healing magic and redeem sinners. There has to be something substantive to believe in…whether religious doctrine/dogma, a philosophical stance/pretext, etc.

An instance of non-religious, philosophically based “faith” could come from a deep and abiding faith in the principles of Plato’s Republic. The American Founders used a lot of that to make a nation out of nothing and it’s still standing (however battered and time-worn). There’s plenty within Plato’s treatise to found a faith-based system of beliefs that could well rival those of any religious organization in the world. Likewise, Marx’s Manifesto contains ample dogmatic/doctrinal tenets for the same. Whether or not a particular form of communism acknowledges religion or not isn’t germane. Does the philosophy of Communism lend towards faith? Ask the Bolsheviks whether their faith was good enough…

Heck, for that matter, Sun Tzu’s (circa 500 B.C.) “Ancient Art of War” could match them. After all, doesn’t Bushido (“Way of the Warrior”, code of conduct adhered to by samurai) embrace every last scrap of the essential nature of Ancient Art of War and still qualify as a non-“religious” faith?  Even Musashi’s “Five Rings”, a central piece of Bushido training literature since the 1600’s, is part of Bushido now; sort of a Bushido “New Testament”.  The seven “virtues” of Bushido are Rectitude, Courage, Benevolence, Respect, Honesty, Honor, and Loyalty… certainly a match for Chastity, Temperance, Diligence, Charity, Patience, Kindness, and Humility the seven Virtues of Christianity. A strong enough belief in Bushido might well convey religious level faith “magic”.

I think it comes down to, what does a one believe in… presuppositionally... without need of proof. That’s the nature of faith.

Duct Tape, peanut butter sandwiches and Sharon Osbournes aside, if there’s something substantive to the belief system, there’s substance for enough faith which, in game terms, will translate to a “True Believer” faith-based character. That’s all the GM needs. Getting the players to swallow it might be another story, but as long as the GM deems it good, it is good.

[sinker]

Ok, there are two different classes of faith powers/abilities and it really depends on which one we are talking about. If you want to perform any of the faith-based stunts or tricks (holding a creature at bay, gaining social armor, etc) then you could do that with any kind of faith. However there are faith powers (Swords of the Cross, the Faith manages trapping of Guide my Hand, the Potent Prayer trapping of Righteousness) that are all about another source (mostly the white god) giving you guidance or power. Just because you strongly believe in yourself or an idea, does not mean that you can spontaneously gain knowledge that you didn't have before or call power from nowhere.

[Sh33p]

Sure you can. It just involves playing a little fast and loose in the name of Fun.

Knowledge from Nowhere = Leap of Logic. Maybe bump your conviction so high that it warps reality a little bit to make sure you make the right call.

Power from Nowhere = Unconscious Wizardry (Harry drawing power from the area around him), Unknowing Use of Sponsored Magic (Higher power decides to root for the underdog with or without belief; Sanya and Harry both arguably qualify in their own ways), Absolute Cosmic Bugfrack Coincidence (Exactly what it says on the tin).

If you absolutely need to have White God/Whoever Else involved somehow to sleep at night, just make it a Sanya case where the believer doesn't necessarily believe in/accept the source of his/her power.

[Amseriah]

There are some religions and philosophies that state that everything is connected, if you go with a model like that then someone could have access to the True Faith powers by way of having a deeper connection to the collective conciousness. 

[ralexs1991]

Sure you can. It just involves playing a little fast and loose in the name of Fun.

Knowledge from Nowhere = Leap of Logic. Maybe bump your conviction so high that it warps reality a little bit to make sure you make the right call.

Power from Nowhere = Unconscious Wizardry (Harry drawing power from the area around him), Unknowing Use of Sponsored Magic (Higher power decides to root for the underdog with or without belief; Sanya and Harry both arguably qualify in their own ways), Absolute Cosmic Bugfrack Coincidence (Exactly what it says on the tin).

If you absolutely need to have White God/Whoever Else involved somehow to sleep at night, just make it a Sanya case where the believer doesn't necessarily believe in/accept the source of his/her power.

idk about the unconscious wizardry cause IIRC Bob says somewhere that faith magic and Harry's magic are differnt things entirely

[sinker]

There are some religions and philosophies that state that everything is connected, if you go with a model like that then someone could have access to the True Faith powers by way of having a deeper connection to the collective conciousness. 

Agreed, I'm just trying to say that some things need a source, not an ideal. That is a source that I've used for faith powers. I had a taoist true immortal that used his "oneness with the universe" to spontaneously acquire knowledge and guidance. I'm definitely not saying that you need the white god to have faith powers, I'm trying to say that you need a being (or concept) of power.

[hank the ancient]

Church of the FSM/pastafarian
Church of Chuck Norris
Follower of Crom (conan the barbarian ref)
adherent of the School of Rock
Brotherhood of the wooden plank (monty python "dei oh gracia WHACK-WHACK")
Loose organization of people who read and actually bought into "the secret"

alternatively you could have inane NPC demons

Shush, demon of "hey waitaminute did you hear something"
Smudge, demon of "there's something on your shirt"
Gyaaagh, demon of accidentally stepping on sharp legos
ummmmmm, demon of indecisive people in line right in front of you
Okomon!, demon of "that guy who comes to a complete friggin stop before making a right turn off the main road".
Sniff, Demon of "he who smelt it dealt it!"
Yelp, Demon of blaming it on the dog
Guuhlurgle, Demon of "I can't honestly converse with my dentist while he's working, can I?"
Guooh!, demon of the dog just nailed me where dogs always get a man.
uh-huh, demon of trying to give a cat orders
!!!!!!, demon of PEOPLE WHO TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! (pronunciation is similar to the straining sound one makes on the toilet)
HUH?, demon of "get your hearing checked" (used to go by the name "Eh?", but then he visited canada...)
ohhaha, demon of "like I've never heard that one before"
Naowut?!, demon of "I just wanted to sit and read my book"
Doy, demon of "can't process simple directions."
Plink, demon of "I just lost the exact change I was planning to use". (infamous around vending machines).
EEew, demon of being hit on by unattractive individuals
TI3VOM, demon of following to closely in a car (use a rearview mirror to figure out that one)


all of these are lietanants to GRRAAAAGH!!!!, demon of "EVERY FRIGGIN TIME!"

[newtinmpls]

"Well that then makes the big question:  are the faith powers internal or external?  All of the Knights of the Cross have the faith powers, as does Father Forthill.  Are their power granted to them by the White God or is it something that is internal, the power of their own conviction and belief?"

Yes; I think it's both.

The "glowing holy symbol" thing seems to be an internal matter (or so Harry keeps telling us - it's his faith in magic).

The sponsored magic flavored powers, such as being able to weild a sword of the cross, seem to be external. Which of course opens up many ideas about items/powers from other faiths.

Dian

[Drashna]

are the faith powers internal or external?

Yes. To me it's a combination of both.  There must be an "external power source", such as the White God, or Magick itself. And there must be the strong conviction in that power to be able to influence the world.

[newtinmpls]

"However the question really is whether someone's faith in anything (ideals, people, etc) can give someone power. So again Sanya isn't a good example. His power comes from the white god, regardless of where his faith lies."

That's certainly one interpetation, and if you like it or it works in your campain, by all means use it.

I don't happen to share it. So in my campain that's not where his power comes from.

[Moriden]

True faith in Nietzsche-ian ideals. Just remember to take immunity to true faith powers [-3] because god is dead.