What is the complexity to Transform Objects?

[ironpoet]

Transforming people violates the Laws of Magic, but transforming objects is considered acceptable.  However I couldn't find any guidelines for the complexity of permanently transforming an object.

To give some specifics, what would be the complexity to...

1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner?
2) Transform a knife into a sword?
3) Transform a pen into a knife?
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition?

[Becq]

One option might be to use the complexities for Conjuring items as a baseline, with the assumption that the items revert to a reasonable analogy of their original form after about a scene.  By this I mean that the partly digested steak would revert to a partly digested burger, and so on.  You could increase the duration by increasing the difficulty.  Unlike Conjured items, Transformation cannot simply be dispelled.

I'm not sure I really like this solution, since it seems as though a Transformation ought to be permanent, but it seems reasonably balanced.

A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy.  So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?"  I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work.  Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).

1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner? It doesn't take much of a cook to prepare a steak, though it's harder without good meat.  Perhaps a base complexity of 2-3 with a base time of a half hour.  The base complexity (before adding complexity to reduce time) would indicate the quality of the steak.
2) Transform a knife into a sword? Similar to above, with base complexity determining quality of the blade.  Base time might be several hours or more, reduced by adding complexity.
3) Transform a pen into a knife? Same as for the sword.
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)? Are we talking drywall, as typically used for house interior walls?  Probably complexity 2 and an hour or two.  A brick wall?  Similar complexity (maybe a point higher), but with an afternoon base time.  Solid stone?  How long would it take to chisel the shape, days perhaps?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition? Probably a base complexity of 2-3, with a base time in the weeks or months.
 
So as an example, rebuilding the house with 'fair' worksmanship by use of an hour-long ritual would be 2 (skill) + 8 (reduce from "months" to "hour") = 10.  Transforming a pen into a 'good' dagger with a ritual of only a few minutes might be 3 (skill) + 4 (reduce "hours" to "minutes") = 7.

Does this look about right?

[Bruce Coulson]

Or, you're 'taking out' the original (so, enough shifts to overcome the resistance and consequences) and replacing it with something else (enough shifts to simulate actual making/constructing of the item).

So, you can transform something, and it's permanent; but unless it was really important for some reason, it's just easier to go ahead and buy something.

[Ryan_Singer]

One option might be to use the complexities for Conjuring items as a baseline, with the assumption that the items revert to a reasonable analogy of their original form after about a scene.  By this I mean that the partly digested steak would revert to a partly digested burger, and so on.  You could increase the duration by increasing the difficulty.  Unlike Conjured items, Transformation cannot simply be dispelled.

I'm not sure I really like this solution, since it seems as though a Transformation ought to be permanent, but it seems reasonably balanced.

A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy.  So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?"  I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work.  Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).

1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner? It doesn't take much of a cook to prepare a steak, though it's harder without good meat.  Perhaps a base complexity of 2-3 with a base time of a half hour.  The base complexity (before adding complexity to reduce time) would indicate the quality of the steak.
2) Transform a knife into a sword? Similar to above, with base complexity determining quality of the blade.  Base time might be several hours or more, reduced by adding complexity.
3) Transform a pen into a knife? Same as for the sword.
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)? Are we talking drywall, as typically used for house interior walls?  Probably complexity 2 and an hour or two.  A brick wall?  Similar complexity (maybe a point higher), but with an afternoon base time.  Solid stone?  How long would it take to chisel the shape, days perhaps?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition? Probably a base complexity of 2-3, with a base time in the weeks or months.
 
So as an example, rebuilding the house with 'fair' worksmanship by use of an hour-long ritual would be 2 (skill) + 8 (reduce from "months" to "hour") = 10.  Transforming a pen into a 'good' dagger with a ritual of only a few minutes might be 3 (skill) + 4 (reduce "hours" to "minutes") = 7.

Does this look about right?

This looks about right. I'd add the caveat that in the Dresdenverse, no one has ever gotten rich using magic. Even the senior council relies on traditional finance with centuries of compounded interest. Turning lead into gold is possible, but never costs less than gold on the open market.

[ironpoet]

Or, you're 'taking out' the original (so, enough shifts to overcome the resistance and consequences) and replacing it with something else (enough shifts to simulate actual making/constructing of the item).

That sounds reasonable, but I have no idea how to calculate the number of shifts to "take out" an object (as opposed to an NPC).

[Becq]

This looks about right. I'd add the caveat that in the Dresdenverse, no one has ever gotten rich using magic. Even the senior council relies on traditional finance with centuries of compounded interest. Turning lead into gold is possible, but never costs less than gold on the open market.

True.  I'm not sure how you'd word this, though.  Possibly you might require that if the final product had more intrinsic value than the original, that the ritual would require 'components' valued at the difference?  So you could turn a good quality hamburger into a small, low-quality steak for nothing, and turning a pen into a dagger wouldn't cost much (a chunk of raw steel doesn't cost much) unless you wanted a ruby in the hilt, but rebuilding the house might require tens of thousands of dollars (the equivalent of the cost of materials).  Turning a rock into a gold-colored (but fake) coin might cost nothing, but turning it into a ten-pound gold bar might require rare components worth a hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I suspect you could still use this to make money, since it would allow you to become the ultimate house-flipper ("House is a major fixer-upper?  No problem, give me an hour and it'll be better than new!").  But maybe that's ok, since to actually make game mechanic use of your wealth, you'd need to buy up your Resources skill.

[ironpoet]

A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy.  So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?"  I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work.  Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).
...
Does this look about right?

I like it as a set of guidelines.  My only issue is that it seems to focus only on the finished product, and ignores any similarity to the starting object.  

Intuitively, I would assume that transforming a big rock into a stone wall is less complex than transforming, say, a tub of pudding into a stone wall.  I also wonder if a burned-down house retains any "memory" of its original form, which would therefore make it easier to restore it.  On the other hand, maybe those would just be considered Aspects to tag during the Preparation phase of Thaumaturgy?

[Bruce Coulson]

Well...for simplicity's sake we can assume objects have the same number of Consequences as characters.  (They just don't heal naturally.)  So, -2/-4/-6/-8 and then an additional one to finally end them.  Objects only have Physical Stress (normally), with modifications for Diminuative (-1 stress box) and Hulking (+1 stress box) size.  (You can add additional size and stress boxes for larger objects).

If the object is unimportant, then it can't take Consequences, and any hit above its Stress takes it out; the above is only for thematically important or owned items.  (Size adds or subtracts as usual.)

[ironpoet]

Well...for simplicity's sake we can assume objects have the same number of Consequences as characters.  (They just don't heal naturally.)  So, -2/-4/-6/-8 and then an additional one to finally end them.  Objects only have Physical Stress (normally), with modifications for Diminuative (-1 stress box) and Hulking (+1 stress box) size.  (You can add additional size and stress boxes for larger objects).

If the object is unimportant, then it can't take Consequences, and any hit above its Stress takes it out; the above is only for thematically important or owned items.  (Size adds or subtracts as usual.)

I like those guidelines a lot.  Thanks!

[sinker]

I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.

[Becq]

I'm not sure that the 'taking out' method works here.  At the very least, it doesn't make sense that turning a dagger into a dirk has about the same complexity as turning a ham sandwich into a finely crafted nativity set, both of which would take a casting of roughly the same magnitude as would be required to kill Dresden.  Or, alternatively, that all transformations of 'unimportant' things are trivial.

In any case, remember that you start by determining what you want to happen, then figure out what system best represents that.  In the case of harmful transformations (turning an opponent into a toad) then your objective is really to take the opponent out, and the fact that he's transformed into a frog only to be stepped on rather than cut in half is just narration, really.  That's why such transformation is based on overcoming all of the target's consequences.  Here, you are trying to use magic to create something useful, so I see it as an application of using magic to perform a mundane task that just happens to be impossible by mundane means.  Thus using the 'simple action' mechanics.

Unless, of course, destruction is your intention, in which case you really are trying to 'take out' the object.  For example, if you wanted to get into the castle, and decided to turn a section of the wall into a flowerbed so that you could stroll in, then you really are trying to take out the wall, not do a bit of gardening.

Obviously, the player (possibly with the GMs gentle guidance) needs to be a bit honest about what you're trying to accomplish.  

[ironpoet]

I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.

That's a valid question.

The scenario that got me thinking about this was "How do you stop a building from collapsing using magic?"  In my current character's backstory, he abandoned his friends (who were battling a minotaur) in order to save a building full of people (that had been damaged during the fight).

- Evocation (Earth) could provide a temporary "Hold Up The Walls" Aspect for a few exchanges, possibly just long enough to cast a simple Conjuration ritual.
- Thaumaturgy (Conjuration) could create longer lasting support beams, but they wouldn't last forever.  Still, it would give you enough breathing room to repair the damage with a Transformation ritual.
- Thaumaturgy (Transformation) could repair the building, leaving the occupants to believe that it was all just a minor earthquake or something.

[ironpoet]

I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.

To offer a few more ideas.

- Stacking furniture against a door will block the entrance just as effectively, but it won't help you to hide.  (I could imagine a situation where a character hid in the attic, then removed the access hatch to the attic.)

- Transforming a safe with a combination lock into a safe with no door is a classy way to prevent mundane thieves from stealing your stuff.

- If you go somewhere where you will be searched for weapons and/or tools, it may be useful to create a weapon/tool after you've been searched.

[ironpoet]

Unless, of course, destruction is your intention, in which case you really are trying to 'take out' the object.  For example, if you wanted to get into the castle, and decided to turn a section of the wall into a flowerbed so that you could stroll in, then you really are trying to take out the wall, not do a bit of gardening.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree.  I'm away from the books, but the section on Transformation mentions that most objects don't "want" to be changed.  I would say that, from the object's perspective, it doesn't make any difference whether you're transforming it for Gardening or for Infiltration.  Either way, you're still "destroying" the original object, right?

On the other hand, I do agree that you need to factor in the difference between starting and ending objects somehow.  That would also explain why it's so difficult/expensive to transform Lead into Gold.  Transforming Lead into a different shape can be done relatively quickly.  Transforming each molecule of Lead into a molecule of Gold would take significantly longer.  You could still do it, but it would take months to prepare the spell, (and then another month to power it).

[Bruce Coulson]

The more changes you're making, the greater the complexity to the final result.  So, turning a large number of lead bullets into a lead Nativity Scene would only need to factor in Craftsmanship (and whatever skill would involve Sculpting/Molding); turning those bullets into a ham sandwich would require Craftsmanship, Survival (for finding a pig), Weapons (for killing said pig), Survival again (making a fire), Craftmanship (again) (for growing the wheat)... suddenly, your Ham Sandwich takes days of time.  Or you could, you know, just go to a corner deli and buy one.

This is why turning Lead into Gold isn't cost effective; unless you use those lead bullets to rob someone...

Stopping a building from collapsing (if you have the time for Thaumaturgy) would be repairing damage; probably Craftsmanship and Scholarship (for architecture) and enough shifts to repair Stress and Consequences.  You're not transforming the building; you're trying to restore it.