Benefit to Overshooting a Control Roll?

[ralexs1991]

propose that this power be named "Refinement [-1]". 

simply brilliant 

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I think it's fine. Refinement offers +2 total, this offers +1. True, it applies to everything. But the spellcasting rules heavily favor specialization, so I'm inclined to throw generalists a bone here. Plus, the character could just buy another point of conviction and so outperform this stunt 100% of the time. If the player wants to play a high Discipline, low Conviction character then they might as well have something to make up for the fact that they would be better off playing a high Discipline, high Conviction character.

In short: this stunt is only too good if it's applied to a suboptimally designed character.

But that Refinement joke WAS pretty funny.

[Belial666]

Generally speaking, such stunts should not be allowed to modify magic because, by definition, stunts are firmly based on what a normal human can do - not supernatural abilities. Even improving supernatural abilities with training could not be put into a stunt.


That said, a blanket +1 power to all uses of magic is too strong and, in addition, is circumventing the standard system for magical bonuses following a pyramid. There is a reason this pyramid is there.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, I simply don't agree with you about the definition of a stunt. It makes essentially no difference if you call it a stunt or a -1 power, but I choose to call it a stunt. Why? Because I see no good reason not to, and it makes it easier to make new ones.

Anyway, I've said my piece about this stunt/power. I cannot imagine any situation in which this would unbalance a game.

[Becq]

The stunt as you worded it not only gives greater bonuses (+1 to three or more elements, rather than +1 to two elements), but also avoids the limits on specialization structuring and the Lore limit.  For example:

Consider, for example a spellflinger character with fire, air, and spirit elements, Lore 2, the "Control is its own power" stunt, and 1 Refinement.  The free spec is +1 fire power, the Refinement grants +1 fire power and +1 air power.  The final bonuses are +3 fire power, +2 air power, and +1 spirit power, despite the limit of gaining no more than the character's Lore as a single bonus.  In addition, the best a character who got a second Refinement instead of the stunt could do would be +2 fire power, +2 air power, and +1 spirit power, so the stunt nets an extra point of bonus, as well!

This becomes even more pronouced if the character chose to use the Refinement to add the water element.  Now the stunted version of the character has +2 fire, +1 air, +1 spirit, and +1 water, while the dual Refinement character gets only +2 fire and +1 air -- two fewer bonuses.

In addition, if the character with the stunt also has Thaumaturgy, the stunt allows them to control more power per roll than a character without the stunt, and allows this for all themes/functions.

Given this, the stunt -- which is supposed to grant about two shifts of situational bonuses -- is granting way too many bonuses.

[HobbitGuy1420]

I had considered the complimenting option (which would grant only +1) better than the "use Discipline instead of Conviction for spellcasting" option, which would have the potential to grant an even wider benefit.

[Becq]

See, this is why the difference between stunts and powers (even [-1] powers) is more than mere semantics.  Fine.  If you insist on treating powers as stunts and spellcasting as trappings, then it seems pretty clear that each element counts as a seperate 'trapping'.  This is why a point of Refinement can add only one element if used in such a way; it's the equivalent of adding a trapping to the spellcasting ability. 

So, under your house rule definitions, your skill would have to say that "Your Discipline compliments your Conviction in Fire spellcasting" or even "You get a +1 Conviction while casting Fire spells".  Note that normally, a stunt would grant two shifts of situational benefits, but not in this case -- because the rules state that stunts should not stack, and if they do they must have a reduced effect.  Since this new stunt is designed to stack with the existing Refinement 'stunt', it has to be reduced.  Further, since this bonus is of the same type as that given by specializations, it would clearly have to obey the same limits -- no total bonus greater than Lore, and columns must be observed.

Enjoy!  (Though I'm going to stick with the guidelines for stunt and power creation as given in the books.)

[Belial666]

From the definition of stunt in the books;

The stunts in this chapter are called mortal
stunts because they’re available to everyone—
supernatural and mundane characters alike—
and have both feet firmly planted in the realm
of what’s possible for a normal (mortal) human
to do.

So no, you cannot take stunts to improve supernatural abilities at all.

[Tsunami]

From the definition of stunt in the books;

Posted on: Today at 11:01:50 AM Posted by: Belial666
Insert Quote
From the definition of stunt in the books;

Quote
The stunts in this chapter are called mortal
stunts because they’re available to everyone—
supernatural and mundane characters alike—
and have both feet firmly planted in the realm
of what’s possible for a normal (mortal) human
to do.

So no, you cannot take stunts to improve supernatural abilities at all.

It says the are called "Mortal Stunts"...
Simply call it a Supernatural stunt instead... Tomato... Tomahto

[Kaldra]

supernatural stunt *cough* power *cough*

[Papa Gruff]

supernatural stunt *cough* power *cough*

Yeah that's what I was thinking. The book even declares supernatural powers as stunts that are supernatural ...

[Kaldra]

labels are interchangeable its the effects that matter

[ralexs1991]

labels are interchangeable its the effects that matter

shakespeare said it best IMO

What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet. -Shakespeare

[Belial666]

There are several big differences though;

1) Thresholds diminish powers but not stunts.
2) Stunts do not stack with other stunts. A power would stack with a stunt.
3) Powers require a high concept that allows for them.

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, I really hadn't thought about that stuff. Well, I had considered the stacking issues, but definitely not the bit about thresholds. But if anything, that makes me more inclined to treat these abilities as stunts. Most of them are just good old human skill and knowledge applied to supernatural powers. If it involves a skill, then I think it can involve stunts. Because that's how I think of stunts: as an addendum to skills.

You know, this thread is really off topic. How would you feel about creating another one to discuss this?