Can you Declare an aspect on a person?

[Craftzero]

We had this come up in a game, and I'd thought I'd run it by you guys.  Can a character declare an aspect on a person? 

I know that you can maneuver an aspect on a person; then you can tag it and invoke it as much as you want (assuming sticky!).  I know that you can use declaration to state you have a lighter on you, that there's a can of gas right behind the bad guy, etc.

A player wanted to use his Martial Arts stunt to 'declare' that the guy fighting him had a poor fighting technique (and declarations are free actions, right?  So you don't have to even use maneuver!  Ahem).  Then he could tag/invoke it while fighting him.  If it matters, the adversary was just a common thug.  The problem is that allowing characters to declare an aspect on NPC's (and vice versa!) just seems like... a bad idea.  The implications of what could be done are boggling.

For what it's worth, I do believe he got the idea from Diaspora, although I don't know if he had misquoted the rule.

[babel2uk]

As far as I recall it's perfectly legitimate to declare an aspect on an NPC. But it's reasonable for the GM to refuse the declaration if they feel it necessary to do so.

[Craftzero]

As far as I recall it's perfectly legitimate to declare an aspect on an NPC. But it's reasonable for the GM to refuse the declaration if they feel it necessary to do so.

You're implying that the reverse isn't allowed - an NPC via the DM declaring an aspect on a PC.  True?

[babel2uk]

that's correct

[HumAnnoyd]

It is the only reason to buy the Martial Arts stunt.  Otherwise that one point of refresh could be used in much better fashion.

[Craftzero]

Yeah, we've never really understood the value of the Martial Arts stunt.  Ok, to be clear - the player can, every time he's fighting someone, do a declaration on his foe.  This declaration can be anything like "Poor Fighter" or "Impressed by My Skill".  Right?

1.  How long does this aspect last?
2.  Does this cost a Fate Point?
3.  Does it come with a free tag?
4.  Can the NPC get rid of it in the same scene?
5.  Is this a Free action?  If so, shouldn't I then expect the player to *always* do a declaration each and every foe he faces?

[Becq]

Ever seen the Princess Bride?  Remember the fight scene between the Dread Pirate (Wesley) and Inugo Montoya?

INIGO: You're using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?
MAN IN BLACK: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain
INIGO: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro
MAN IN BLACK: Naturally -- but I find Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
INIGO: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa -- which I have.

With each line, the combatants are recognizing the fighting style of their opponents, recalling that style's weaknesses, then switching to a style that allows them to exploit that weakness.  And vice versa.  When using the stunt in question, keep this scene in mind, but use words like "Praying Mantis Style" and "Drunken Monkey Style", or whatever seems appropriate.

[luminos]

Yes, you absolutely can declare something about your opponent, or any other NPC.  It should only be a problem if you ignore the guidelines for setting difficulties for declarations. 

[JustinS]

You can only declare unspecified details.

Given that:
You can't declare on a player (unless they are using the build as you go method of making characters), and you can only declare aspects on NPCs who don't have a full set of 7 yet. So you can make NPCs more interesting, if they are not already so. Also, the difficulty is still a function of cool. A lame or repeated aspect is hard, one that makes game more interesting is less so.

I'd call 'poor technique' a harder declaration then 'mall outlet trained martial artiest' for example.

[sinker]

Ever seen the Princess Bride?  Remember the fight scene between the Dread Pirate (Wesley) and Inugo Montoya?

INIGO: You're using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?
MAN IN BLACK: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain
INIGO: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro
MAN IN BLACK: Naturally -- but I find Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
INIGO: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa -- which I have.

With each line, the combatants are recognizing the fighting style of their opponents, recalling that style's weaknesses, then switching to a style that allows them to exploit that weakness.  And vice versa.  When using the stunt in question, keep this scene in mind, but use words like "Praying Mantis Style" and "Drunken Monkey Style", or whatever seems appropriate.

To be fair technically those are assessments not declarations. Wesley is already using bonetti's defense then Inigo is assessing that and using his sword skills to exploit that aspect by using a style that counters it.

[Craftzero]

Ok doke.  Sounds good - can anyone answer my questions above, though?  I'm still not entirely sure how to handle it...

[sjksprocket]

Yeah, we've never really understood the value of the Martial Arts stunt.  Ok, to be clear - the player can, every time he's fighting someone, do a declaration on his foe.  This declaration can be anything like "Poor Fighter" or "Impressed by My Skill".  Right?

1.  How long does this aspect last?
2.  Does this cost a Fate Point?
3.  Does it come with a free tag?
4.  Can the NPC get rid of it in the same scene?
5.  Is this a Free action?  If so, shouldn't I then expect the player to *always* do a declaration each and every foe he faces?

As far as I understand it:
1: however long it seems appropriate. "poorly trained" would probably last a while, "Stunned by my skill" might wear off pretty shortly.
2: Yes, decelerations should cost a fate point every time.
3: Yes, and since decelerations are free actions you can tag it immediately
4: see number 1
5: as with 4 yes, it is free. What stops players from doing it with every single npc is the fate point cost. and if you need to use the the optional rule where players need to roll for it if they start to get carried away.

[babel2uk]

2: Yes, decelerations should cost a fate point every time.

No, they either require a Fate Point, or a successful skill roll. The example on page 116 bears this out, and the description of declarations on page 20 states that they can normally be done with a skill roll, but spending a fate point makes it certain and there's no need to make a roll.

And from page 196:

To make a declaration, state the aspect you wish to create or take advantage of. The GM assigns an appropriate difficulty, and you roll the appropriate skill. If you succeed, the fact is true and the aspect is immediately assigned to the target so that you can use it just as if you’d succeeded on an assessment roll.

A sticky aspect lasts until the person it is applied to makes a maneuver roll to remove it or until the end of a conflict or scene. The type of roll to get rid of an aspect depends on the aspect itself. 'Sloppy Fighting Technique' might just require a discipline roll to 'get back in the game', or it might stick with the thug through the whole fight.

It is a free action, but the GM has the power to veto it if the players start taking the mickey - remember that it's a tool to make the GM's job easier. If it starts making it harder then you need to talk to your players about appropriate uses of declarations. The use of a roll for declarations isn't actually an optional rule, except in the sense that when making a declaration you have the option to make a roll or spend a fate point.

And remember, if they fail a roll they may not realise it until too late.

"Hey, that thug has a sloppy fighting style! Leave him to me!"

"You know, I'm beginning to think that might be Drunken Monkey Kung Fu... I've never seen someone beaten into unconsciousness with their own fist before. Still, it sure did look like a sloppy fighting style from a distance. Maybe we should call an ambulance..."

[WillH]

Generally, you spend fate points on declarations (YS20) when you want to create things in the story, not just filling out details or aspects.

[crusher_bob]

How about running it like this:

Your PC makes an assesment action after seeing someone fight.  They roll fists vs the skill in use by the other guy (fists or weapons).  If he gets enough for a sticky aspect, he gaines something like "knows the weakness of (NPC's) fighting style".  This comes with a free tag like any other maneuver, but unlike normal maneuvers, it lasts until the NPC levels up his kung-fu, or something.

Against NPCs who have the martial artist stunt themselves; the NPC should probably be able to switch fighting styles (a difficulty 3 supplemental fists maneuver, maybe?) to remove the aspect.  While NPCs without the MA  stunt are stuck with it for a while.  Of course, it still hard to find a weakness in the style of a guy with high fists score, even if he doesn't have the MA stunt.

This encourages your PC to go out and secretly watch other guys training or fighting, so he can make the assessment actions without being in the fight himself.

Against NPCs who you are ever going to meet once, it just lets you put a maneuver that is 'extra sticky' on them, but that other people probably can't use.  (Remember that you can normally 'clear' maneuvered aspects on yourself with an action.)